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Trigger warnings, safe spaces, and fascism on college campuses

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  • Originally posted by swampfrog View Post
    Makes me glad I wasn't involved with debate in HS. My expectation of what it is, and what it actually is seem to be in conflict.
    this flavor of debate is an extension of the academy and brings with it a lot of the related ideological dumbness. but it is also the best critical thinking exercise there is.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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    • Originally posted by Donuthole View Post
      I was talking more about the speed reading of the briefs. I always thought that was a ridiculous construct. As to your point, I agree that having a biased judge sucks and isn't really fair. But that actually mirrors real life in the courtroom. As much as judges are supposed to set aside their personal biases, they often don't, and you're left to litigate a case around those biases.
      As someone who grew up in a household of a debate coach and years and years involved in the activity as a participant and a judge, I completely agree with everything stated here. Speed was always dumb in my mind. And dumb, biased judges was part of the challenge. It really mirrors real life. I’ve learned more about dealing with difficult bosses, church members, etc from my own experiences in debate than everything else combined. However, I no longer enjoy Thanksgiving dinner like I used to. Sometimes there is no winning regardless if you’re right.
      A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. - Mohammad Ali

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      • Originally posted by swampfrog View Post
        Which would be fine if the point of the debates were to mirror real life. Fair point anyway, having to learn to deal with people's biases is valuable education. At some point though, lines get crossed that shouldn't--and there should be consequences for the judge.
        Ha. Consequences. The judge probably got exactly what he/she wanted. The rest of the day off. Running tournaments, especially multi-state tournaments mean it’s a struggle to get judges. You get some really crappy judges because of that. The pay is ridiculous and most just want to get done ASAP.
        A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. - Mohammad Ali

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        • A couple of weeks ago, I thought maybe I should have done debate in high school. After seeing the speed reading portion, I'm super glad that I didn't.
          Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

          "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

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          • this is a much more interesting version of that debate

            Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by CJF View Post
              As someone who grew up in a household of a debate coach and years and years involved in the activity as a participant and a judge, I completely agree with everything stated here. Speed was always dumb in my mind. And dumb, biased judges was part of the challenge. It really mirrors real life. I’ve learned more about dealing with difficult bosses, church members, etc from my own experiences in debate than everything else combined. However, I no longer enjoy Thanksgiving dinner like I used to. Sometimes there is no winning regardless if you’re right.
              CJF has loads of experience and knows what he is talking about. I, too, debated in HS and college but disagree with his assessment here.

              First, speed is not dumb. Incomprehensibility is dumb, but that is not the same thing.

              Second, judges with biases are a fact of life and dealing with this is an important part of learning how to succeed in debate. That said, the conduct of the judge in this example is ridiculous. The judge should never stop the round over disagreement with the ideology or identity of a source. While that issue is fair game, whether such evidence is persuasive or useful should be assessed at the end of the debate, not before it is over. If I was running that tournament (and in former days I did run more than a few high school tournaments) that judge would not be allowed in my tournament.

              Third, I don't think debate mirrors real life at all. There is nothing else like this. What debate DOES do is teach skills that can be incredibly useful in life. The list of skills includes speaking, public presentation, writing, critical thinking, assessing audience reaction, research and more.

              I find this story very disappointing. If there is ever a place where participants should be able to experiment with ALL arguments, it is a forum supposedly devoted to clear thinking and exchange of ideas. If a kid can't make the sort of arguments this kid was making while quoting the people he was quoting (I am not saying he deserves to win, but he does deserve to be heard) in a debate tournament, then the pendulum has swung much too far.
              PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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              • Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
                debate has been like this for a long time (since bill shanahan was at fort hays)
                Or, perhaps, even before Shanahan.
                PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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                • Originally posted by creekster View Post
                  Or, perhaps, even before Shanahan.
                  were there performance teams rapping and doing slam poetry before that?
                  Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
                    were there performance teams rapping and doing slam poetry before that?
                    No idea. But presentations inconsistent with expectations have. It didn’t begin without precedent. And, in the scheme of this discussion this historical question is not important.
                    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

                    Comment


                    • Creekster, you and I are more aligned than not. I’d be shocked if the Layton coach didn’t throw a fit and the judge was done. I am more than a little surprised at the response from the tournament director. He’s running a national tournament from a school that has had in the past a solid reputation. The kind of justification he gave the Layton kids kills the reputation of the ASU program. I’ve been in these types of situations and we gave both teams a win and averaged the speaker points from other rounds. I’m surprised how this was handled. Really, it’s a black eye on ASU.

                      Your assessment of real life is what I was trying express. High school debate, and college for that matter, is an exercise in extreme ridiculousness. How many times over will the world end if the judge doesn’t vote neg? How many people will all of the sudden live in health, peace and prosperity immediately if the judge votes aff? Debate isn’t about reality (although I did run a disad in 1989 that essentially stated that Saddam Hussein would invade Kuwait leading to WW III) in the world, but adapting debate skills to real world situations. There is nothing in high school that comes close to duplicating these skill developments.

                      I still think speed is completely overrated and used as crutch more often than not. I was guilty of this myself from time to time. I spent three summers working with a two time NDA national champion. He was not fast, but incredible concise, articulate and intelligent. It allowed him to be very persuasive. I learned so much from him and it made me much better.

                      If I had to vote, I’d give this round to you. Well done.
                      A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. - Mohammad Ali

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CJF View Post
                        Creekster, you and I are more aligned than not. I’d be shocked if the Layton coach didn’t throw a fit and the judge was done. I am more than a little surprised at the response from the tournament director. He’s running a national tournament from a school that has had in the past a solid reputation. The kind of justification he gave the Layton kids kills the reputation of the ASU program. I’ve been in these types of situations and we gave both teams a win and averaged the speaker points from other rounds. I’m surprised how this was handled. Really, it’s a black eye on ASU.

                        Your assessment of real life is what I was trying express. High school debate, and college for that matter, is an exercise in extreme ridiculousness. How many times over will the world end if the judge doesn’t vote neg? How many people will all of the sudden live in health, peace and prosperity immediately if the judge votes aff? Debate isn’t about reality (although I did run a disad in 1989 that essentially stated that Saddam Hussein would invade Kuwait leading to WW III) in the world, but adapting debate skills to real world situations. There is nothing in high school that comes close to duplicating these skill developments.

                        I still think speed is completely overrated and used as crutch more often than not. I was guilty of this myself from time to time. I spent three summers working with a two time NDA national champion. He was not fast, but incredible concise, articulate and intelligent. It allowed him to be very persuasive. I learned so much from him and it made me much better.

                        If I had to vote, I’d give this round to you. Well done.
                        Nooooooooooo! Now cr33k will be even more insufferable.
                        Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

                        For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

                        Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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                        • Originally posted by myboynoah View Post
                          Nooooooooooo! Now cr33k will be even more insufferable.
                          Is that even possible?
                          PLesa excuse the tpyos.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by creekster View Post
                            Is that even possible?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by creekster View Post
                              Is that even possible?
                              I have confidence in YOU! YOU can do ANYTHING if YOU set YOUR mind to it!
                              Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

                              For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

                              Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

                              Comment


                              • https://nyti.ms/2LotIOB
                                When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                                --Jonathan Swift

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