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Thread: Trigger warnings, safe spaces, and fascism on college campuses

  1. #1051

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    Maybe this needs a thread title change, it's not just college campuses. How about some HS kids from Layton, UT being the subject to this nonsense?

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/42751...x3sXISc06EUrLM

    One of the students recorded part of the debate, which is linked in the article.

  2. #1052
    Philosopher of Men Sleeping in EQ's Avatar
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    In too many instances administrators, teachers, counselors, etc, in K-12 are outright hostile to freedom of speech.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

  3. #1053
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Maybe this needs a thread title change, it's not just college campuses. How about some HS kids from Layton, UT being the subject to this nonsense?

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/42751...x3sXISc06EUrLM

    One of the students recorded part of the debate, which is linked in the article.
    The funniest thing about that story is how the other debate team tried to skate by with such a stupid argument.
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  4. #1054
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Maybe this needs a thread title change, it's not just college campuses. How about some HS kids from Layton, UT being the subject to this nonsense?

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/42751...x3sXISc06EUrLM

    One of the students recorded part of the debate, which is linked in the article.
    Washington, Jefferson, and Madison all owned slaves (also, all from Virginia!)... we need to stop quoting those white supremacists too.
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  5. #1055

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Washington, Jefferson, and Madison all owned slaves (also, all from Virginia!)... we need to stop quoting those white supremacists too.
    I think everyone who has done something morally wrong should not only not be quoted, but anyone alive who also has done something morally wrong should not be allowed to speak. That has really been proven a great path to trod. Leads to understanding, love, and compassion.

  6. #1056

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Maybe this needs a thread title change, it's not just college campuses. How about some HS kids from Layton, UT being the subject to this nonsense?

    https://www.dailywire.com/news/42751...x3sXISc06EUrLM

    One of the students recorded part of the debate, which is linked in the article.
    Yeah, that was pretty weak. As Ace Carolla always says, with the constant cry-wolf accusations of racism, never has there ever been a better time to be an actual racist.

    Sidenote: This doesn't change the fact that the format for modern competitive debate is ridiculous.
    Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

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  7. #1057

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donuthole View Post
    Sidenote: This doesn't change the fact that the format for modern competitive debate is ridiculous.
    From the article:
    "I think you are totally right that [the judge] overstepped a little bit by stopping the debate and deciding, but I also think it’s incredibly obvious that – regardless of how many ways you try to couch this argument in front of that judge – the bar for the other team to respond to it was going to be so low that the argumentative content that you chose, the strategy that you chose, for that judge and for his stated philosophy, was a poor choice on your part,” one of the directors tells Moreno in the video.
    I get that even in professional sports you sometimes have to adjust game play to how the refs are calling the game, but seriously, you don't even rebuke the refs for ignorance/alteration of the rules? A judge gets to evaluate based on his "stated philosophy"? And it's the student's fault?

  8. #1058

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    From the article:

    I get that even in professional sports you sometimes have to adjust game play to how the refs are calling the game, but seriously, you don't even rebuke the refs for ignorance/alteration of the rules? A judge gets to evaluate based on his "stated philosophy"? And it's the student's fault?
    I was talking more about the speed reading of the briefs. I always thought that was a ridiculous construct. As to your point, I agree that having a biased judge sucks and isn't really fair. But that actually mirrors real life in the courtroom. As much as judges are supposed to set aside their personal biases, they often don't, and you're left to litigate a case around those biases.
    Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

    There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

  9. #1059

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donuthole View Post
    I was talking more about the speed reading of the briefs. I always thought that was a ridiculous construct. As to your point, I agree that having a biased judge sucks and isn't really fair. But that actually mirrors real life in the courtroom. As much as judges are supposed to set aside their personal biases, they often don't, and you're left to litigate a case around those biases.
    Which would be fine if the point of the debates were to mirror real life. Fair point anyway, having to learn to deal with people's biases is valuable education. At some point though, lines get crossed that shouldn't--and there should be consequences for the judge.

  10. #1060

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    the performance/kritik stuff started in college and trickled down to high school. teams doing it have won some pretty big tournaments and advanced far at the toc.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  11. #1061

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    The student's response to having uploaded the video in the first place. His coach and administrators being "bombarded" (his language) with calls to have the original video taken down. This is what debate has become?

  12. #1062

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donuthole View Post
    I was talking more about the speed reading of the briefs. I always thought that was a ridiculous construct. As to your point, I agree that having a biased judge sucks and isn't really fair. But that actually mirrors real life in the courtroom. As much as judges are supposed to set aside their personal biases, they often don't, and you're left to litigate a case around those biases.
    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Which would be fine if the point of the debates were to mirror real life. Fair point anyway, having to learn to deal with people's biases is valuable education. At some point though, lines get crossed that shouldn't--and there should be consequences for the judge.
    For a high school student, I'm dumbfounded. Here is his response as to why debate should not model real life.

  13. #1063

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    The student's response to having uploaded the video in the first place. His coach and administrators being "bombarded" (his language) with calls to have the original video taken down. This is what debate has become?
    debate has been like this for a long time (since bill shanahan was at fort hays)
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  14. #1064
    Where's Wallace? Surfah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    debate has been like this for a long time (since bill shanahan was at fort hays)
    I wasn't a nerd in HS so I had to Google Bill Shanahan.

    This was the first hit:

    The YouTube video showed Shanahan in an angry, prolonged, obscenity-laced shouting match with University of Pittsburgh debate coach Shanara Reid-Brinkley following a debate between FHSU and Towson State of Maryland. The FHSU team had exercised its prerogative under the debate rules to dismiss Reid-Brinkley as a judge of the FHSU-Towson State debate. Both the Towson State debate team and Reid-Brinkley said the decision to remove a black female judge was an act of white hegemony, which is to say an exercise of the power whites enjoy over people of color. At one point early in the post-debate argument, Shanahan turned his back to Reid-Brinkley, pulled down his shorts and bent over to expose his underwear-clad backside.
    https://www.cross-x.com/forums/topic...kills-program/

    Kind of interesting that the topic is somewhat related.
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  15. #1065

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    debate has been like this for a long time (since bill shanahan was at fort hays)
    Quote Originally Posted by Surfah View Post
    I wasn't a nerd in HS so I had to Google Bill Shanahan.

    This was the first hit:



    https://www.cross-x.com/forums/topic...kills-program/

    Kind of interesting that the topic is somewhat related.
    Makes me glad I wasn't involved with debate in HS. My expectation of what it is, and what it actually is seem to be in conflict.

  16. #1066

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Makes me glad I wasn't involved with debate in HS. My expectation of what it is, and what it actually is seem to be in conflict.
    this flavor of debate is an extension of the academy and brings with it a lot of the related ideological dumbness. but it is also the best critical thinking exercise there is.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  17. #1067

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donuthole View Post
    I was talking more about the speed reading of the briefs. I always thought that was a ridiculous construct. As to your point, I agree that having a biased judge sucks and isn't really fair. But that actually mirrors real life in the courtroom. As much as judges are supposed to set aside their personal biases, they often don't, and you're left to litigate a case around those biases.
    As someone who grew up in a household of a debate coach and years and years involved in the activity as a participant and a judge, I completely agree with everything stated here. Speed was always dumb in my mind. And dumb, biased judges was part of the challenge. It really mirrors real life. I’ve learned more about dealing with difficult bosses, church members, etc from my own experiences in debate than everything else combined. However, I no longer enjoy Thanksgiving dinner like I used to. Sometimes there is no winning regardless if you’re right.
    A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. - Mohammad Ali

  18. #1068

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    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Which would be fine if the point of the debates were to mirror real life. Fair point anyway, having to learn to deal with people's biases is valuable education. At some point though, lines get crossed that shouldn't--and there should be consequences for the judge.
    Ha. Consequences. The judge probably got exactly what he/she wanted. The rest of the day off. Running tournaments, especially multi-state tournaments mean it’s a struggle to get judges. You get some really crappy judges because of that. The pay is ridiculous and most just want to get done ASAP.
    A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. - Mohammad Ali

  19. #1069
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
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    A couple of weeks ago, I thought maybe I should have done debate in high school. After seeing the speed reading portion, I'm super glad that I didn't.
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  20. #1070

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    this is a much more interesting version of that debate

    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  21. #1071
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJF View Post
    As someone who grew up in a household of a debate coach and years and years involved in the activity as a participant and a judge, I completely agree with everything stated here. Speed was always dumb in my mind. And dumb, biased judges was part of the challenge. It really mirrors real life. I’ve learned more about dealing with difficult bosses, church members, etc from my own experiences in debate than everything else combined. However, I no longer enjoy Thanksgiving dinner like I used to. Sometimes there is no winning regardless if you’re right.
    CJF has loads of experience and knows what he is talking about. I, too, debated in HS and college but disagree with his assessment here.

    First, speed is not dumb. Incomprehensibility is dumb, but that is not the same thing.

    Second, judges with biases are a fact of life and dealing with this is an important part of learning how to succeed in debate. That said, the conduct of the judge in this example is ridiculous. The judge should never stop the round over disagreement with the ideology or identity of a source. While that issue is fair game, whether such evidence is persuasive or useful should be assessed at the end of the debate, not before it is over. If I was running that tournament (and in former days I did run more than a few high school tournaments) that judge would not be allowed in my tournament.

    Third, I don't think debate mirrors real life at all. There is nothing else like this. What debate DOES do is teach skills that can be incredibly useful in life. The list of skills includes speaking, public presentation, writing, critical thinking, assessing audience reaction, research and more.

    I find this story very disappointing. If there is ever a place where participants should be able to experiment with ALL arguments, it is a forum supposedly devoted to clear thinking and exchange of ideas. If a kid can't make the sort of arguments this kid was making while quoting the people he was quoting (I am not saying he deserves to win, but he does deserve to be heard) in a debate tournament, then the pendulum has swung much too far.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  22. #1072
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    debate has been like this for a long time (since bill shanahan was at fort hays)
    Or, perhaps, even before Shanahan.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  23. #1073

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Or, perhaps, even before Shanahan.
    were there performance teams rapping and doing slam poetry before that?
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  24. #1074
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    were there performance teams rapping and doing slam poetry before that?
    No idea. But presentations inconsistent with expectations have. It didn’t begin without precedent. And, in the scheme of this discussion this historical question is not important.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  25. #1075

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    Creekster, you and I are more aligned than not. I’d be shocked if the Layton coach didn’t throw a fit and the judge was done. I am more than a little surprised at the response from the tournament director. He’s running a national tournament from a school that has had in the past a solid reputation. The kind of justification he gave the Layton kids kills the reputation of the ASU program. I’ve been in these types of situations and we gave both teams a win and averaged the speaker points from other rounds. I’m surprised how this was handled. Really, it’s a black eye on ASU.

    Your assessment of real life is what I was trying express. High school debate, and college for that matter, is an exercise in extreme ridiculousness. How many times over will the world end if the judge doesn’t vote neg? How many people will all of the sudden live in health, peace and prosperity immediately if the judge votes aff? Debate isn’t about reality (although I did run a disad in 1989 that essentially stated that Saddam Hussein would invade Kuwait leading to WW III) in the world, but adapting debate skills to real world situations. There is nothing in high school that comes close to duplicating these skill developments.

    I still think speed is completely overrated and used as crutch more often than not. I was guilty of this myself from time to time. I spent three summers working with a two time NDA national champion. He was not fast, but incredible concise, articulate and intelligent. It allowed him to be very persuasive. I learned so much from him and it made me much better.

    If I had to vote, I’d give this round to you. Well done.
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  26. #1076
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJF View Post
    Creekster, you and I are more aligned than not. I’d be shocked if the Layton coach didn’t throw a fit and the judge was done. I am more than a little surprised at the response from the tournament director. He’s running a national tournament from a school that has had in the past a solid reputation. The kind of justification he gave the Layton kids kills the reputation of the ASU program. I’ve been in these types of situations and we gave both teams a win and averaged the speaker points from other rounds. I’m surprised how this was handled. Really, it’s a black eye on ASU.

    Your assessment of real life is what I was trying express. High school debate, and college for that matter, is an exercise in extreme ridiculousness. How many times over will the world end if the judge doesn’t vote neg? How many people will all of the sudden live in health, peace and prosperity immediately if the judge votes aff? Debate isn’t about reality (although I did run a disad in 1989 that essentially stated that Saddam Hussein would invade Kuwait leading to WW III) in the world, but adapting debate skills to real world situations. There is nothing in high school that comes close to duplicating these skill developments.

    I still think speed is completely overrated and used as crutch more often than not. I was guilty of this myself from time to time. I spent three summers working with a two time NDA national champion. He was not fast, but incredible concise, articulate and intelligent. It allowed him to be very persuasive. I learned so much from him and it made me much better.

    If I had to vote, I’d give this round to you. Well done.
    Nooooooooooo! Now cr33k will be even more insufferable.
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  27. #1077
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    Nooooooooooo! Now cr33k will be even more insufferable.
    Is that even possible?
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  28. #1078

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Is that even possible?

  29. #1079
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Is that even possible?
    I have confidence in YOU! YOU can do ANYTHING if YOU set YOUR mind to it!
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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