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  • #61
    Originally posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    Well said. I tire of people today who stand on the shoulders of history's philosophical giants and spit down at anyone in the past who wasn't 100% pure by today's standards. Jefferson and Washington were flawed like everyone else. But the balance of their lives were a huge net positive for America and the rest of the world.
    Jefferson was a politician, and as such he mirrored the flaws of his constituents in addition to being himself deeply flawed (he sexually abused an adolescent slave girl!). As a politician, he was a convenient person to mythologize and deify as every nation needs its founding myth. Also, as a politician, he contributed nothing original to the history of ideas. On the grounds that you and Lebowski want to continue to deify him we should actually be worshiping Locke, Hume, Adam Smith, Voltaire, Paine, and others who were truly original and courageous, instead of him.
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 11-25-2015, 09:17 AM.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
      Whoa, wait a minute. Weren't you weeping at the Lincoln Memorial?
      I was weeping before the Gettysburg address.
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

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      • #63
        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
        Jefferson was a politician, and as such he mirrored the flaws of his constituents in addition to being himself deeply flawed (he sexually abused an adolescent slave girl!). As a politician, he was a convenient person to mythologize and deify as every nation needs its founding myth. Also, as a politician, he contributed nothing original to the history of ideas. On the grounds that you and Lebowski want to continue to deify him we should actually be worshiping Locke, Hume, Adam Smith, Voltaire, and others who were truly original and courageous, instead of him.
        There you go again with the false dichotomies! Who said I don't love and respect those others?
        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
          There you go again with the false dichotomies! Who said I don't love and respect those others?
          We're talking about the University of Virginia's idolatry of Jefferson.
          When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

          --Jonathan Swift

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
            I was weeping before the Gettysburg address.
            Golden calf, statues of persons, carving of document.

            In my own worshiping of graven images, I point to the time I played fantasy football while it was just getting started. You should have seen the spreadsheet I created. It download the stats weekly, broke them down according to our league rules, told me who to play from week to week, etc. It was a thing of beauty!

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            • #66
              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
              We're talking about the University of Virginia's idolatry of Jefferson.
              Where would UVA be without ole Tom? It is pure condescension to judge these persons of significant accomplishments simply because they do not conform to modern ideals. Many of the other thinkers also contributed and their positive accomplishments should be admired. Why not simply admire the positive traits of individuals, because of the fact that a flawed individual can still accomplish great things in other aspects of life should inspire each of us?

              You troll quite a bit, but always remain in character.
              "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

              Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                Jefferson was a politician, and as such he mirrored the flaws of his constituents in addition to being himself deeply flawed (he sexually abused an adolescent slave girl!). As a politician, he was a convenient person to mythologize and deify as every nation needs its founding myth. Also, as a politician, he contributed nothing original to the history of ideas. On the grounds that you and Lebowski want to continue to deify him we should actually be worshiping Locke, Hume, Adam Smith, Voltaire, Paine, and others who were truly original and courageous, instead of him.
                You're reaching, man. I don't deify Jefferson. I find actions in his personal conduct deplorable. I think his oft-repeated phrase about the tree of liberty being watered occasionally with the blood of tyrants and patriots is a dangerous sentiment that should be repudiated. But I can also walk and chew gum at the same time. To deny the great good Jefferson wrought on the nation and the lasting impact of his ideas because of his other sins is ridiculous. Even if his ideas were just a real-world synthesis of the great thinkers you mention, actually codified into a workable form of government. That's the great genius of the founders. I don't think anyone is arguing they should be elevated above the great philosophers as thinkers. But they were politicians facing real competing interests and real life and death situations, and yet managed to borrow and combine ideas from history and give birth to a system that was able to evolve (and continues to evolve) into the freest nation in history.

                I may come closer to deifying Washington. But he also deserves it more.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                  The part of Judaism and Islam I most agree with is no graven images (Christianity claims this rule too but absolutely does not live by it; it's a creed that adores men if there ever was one).
                  Let's see. Here you talk about the Lincoln Memorial:

                  http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...mple-yesterday

                  Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                  See it calls itself a temple. It is a temple for all who love liberty.
                  Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                  Did you cry? I always do.
                  Here you talk about worshipping at all of the washington monuments (including the Jefferson memorial) :

                  http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post998434

                  Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                  ... I was nine, and those images have stayed with me ever since. I have always ever since pictured in my mind's eye the words inscribed on the walls of the Jefferson and Lincoln memorials ...

                  Now there's an even richer experience to be had. You have the MLK memorial -- boy was he ever the Dr. J of oratory. His memorial is close to FDR's, and his quotations make FDR's lines look prosaic. And it seems he was never reading form a text. I love the huge MLK statue. The FDR memorial captures the man's strength, contributions to our republic and personal vulnerabilties perfectly....
                  And finally, I give you this gem, where you put historical racism in context:

                  http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthr...l=1#post777249

                  Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                  lol yes, all people of a certain generation or generations were racist. Lincoln for most of his political career was not an abolitionist. He rendered the emancipation proclamation when it suited him politically, and served the end of saving the Union. Our founding fathers enshrined slavery in the Constitution. I still have vivid memories of people I loved as a child saying racist things. We all do. SO WHAT. That's a singularly uninteresting and irrelevant point.
                  "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                  "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                  "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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                  • #69
                    I cry at the Lincoln too. Every time.

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                    • #70
                      Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
                      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                      --Jonathan Swift

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                        Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
                        Your unshakeable belief that you're always correct is, over time, perhaps the most consistent thing on this board.
                        PLesa excuse the tpyos.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                          Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
                          I agree with SeattleUte: BYU is racist. It should be shut down.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                            Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
                            Have people always had a modern outlook on gay marriage? If you claim pederasty was consistent with gay marriage, then you are unfamiliar with its practice. Which is perfectly okay by me. You should consult some of your Ute brethren in case you are curious.
                            Last edited by Topper; 11-25-2015, 12:49 PM.
                            "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

                            Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Trigger warnings, safe spaces, and fascism on college campuses

                              Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                              Jeff, I'm being consistent. I'm saying that you can contextualize racism all you want, but it doesn't exonerate the racists in any epoch. Here I have elaborated that there have always been people who opposed racism and had our outlook.
                              Oh I think you are all over the map. But I still love you anyway. I am ok with flawed and complex people!
                              "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                              "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                              "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                He is the Dr. J of CUF trolls!
                                "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

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