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Thread: "Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated" - The Socialism Thread

  1. #61
    Semper infra dignitatem PaloAltoCougar's Avatar
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    The abhorrence of socialism is in my DNA, or was at least beaten into me throughout my childhood, and I don't see that changing. But are we really talking about socialism when discussing Bernie? I thought socialism required public ownership of all of the means of production, which is a bit more than what Bernie is calling for. is the concern that his proposals are simply steps toward his end game of true socialism? And if one rejects his proposals, should one also support the rollback of other social programs (e.g., Social Security, Medicare, K-12 education)? At what point does a useful government program move into the socialism danger zone? Please keep your answers to 25 words or less, unless you're not Donald Trump.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Apparently there are some who need convincing. Bernie took what, 100% of Utah votes? Cardiac's assessment is that even the Utah democrats would prefer a socialist to a woman. Clearly they Republicans would prefer an aspiring dictator likeTrump to a woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blueintheface View Post
    Man, I hate agreeing with SU but I live here. Despite your absence from the area for quite some time SU, your assessment is still accurate...and embarrassing.
    It always bugs me when statements like this get thrown out there.

    Eight years ago, it was all about how Utah would never elect a Black man because we are racist. (Sure...it had NOTHING to do with Obama or his party.)

    Are you really now trying to push that Utah doesn't like Hillary simply because she is a woman? (And, conversely, that it has NOTHING to do with who Hillary is or her party?)

    Get the Republicans to put Condoleeza Rice on the ballot and I suspect that you'd get to see Utah vote for both a Woman and a Black person in the same damn election!

    I don't think this is about race OR gender.

  3. #63
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    The abhorrence of socialism is in my DNA, or was at least beaten into me throughout my childhood, and I don't see that changing. But are we really talking about socialism when discussing Bernie? I thought socialism required public ownership of all of the means of production, which is a bit more than what Bernie is calling for. is the concern that his proposals are simply steps toward his end game of true socialism? And if one rejects his proposals, should one also support the rollback of other social programs (e.g., Social Security, Medicare, K-12 education)? At what point does a useful government program move into the socialism danger zone? Please keep your answers to 25 words or less, unless you're not Donald Trump.
    I'm not stopping at 25 words.

    I'm not your grandpa's socialism hater. But yes, it's a continuum. You don't want us to become Canada, trust me.

    I understand the importance of certain social programs; I have family who are beneficiaries of them, and someday I will be too. But Bernie's comprehensive world view is infuriating if not disturbing--tariffs, demonizing immigrants, pandering to lazy entitled Millennials, blaming everybody's ennui on Wall Street and Mexican immigrants. He's pulled off the difficult feat of attracting both the insular and elitist liberals who think that progressivism is all about bemoaning climate change and avoiding genetically engineered foods and reflexively hating corporations (including those that produce vaccines and especially Amazon even though it may be in your own town stuffing goodies in your mouth)--clueless that it would be the poor especially in the most downtrodden countries that their ideas would most injure if put into practice--and the angry jobless white working class who actually are repulsive to the other branch of his constituency. Yes, now that Mormonism is effectively irrelevant, I've got my sight on a new kind of more dangerous religion. What's disturbing is the dogmatic outlook that calling yourself a socialist betrays.
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 05-16-2016 at 04:21 PM.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    The abhorrence of socialism is in my DNA, or was at least beaten into me throughout my childhood, and I don't see that changing. But are we really talking about socialism when discussing Bernie? I thought socialism required public ownership of all of the means of production, which is a bit more than what Bernie is calling for. is the concern that his proposals are simply steps toward his end game of true socialism? And if one rejects his proposals, should one also support the rollback of other social programs (e.g., Social Security, Medicare, K-12 education)? At what point does a useful government program move into the socialism danger zone? Please keep your answers to 25 words or less, unless you're not Donald Trump.
    It is quite a different beast to argue in favor of rollback of existing social net programs as opposed to massive expansion of these programs. To be a conservative means to avoid social disruption. Although the Social Security program is not the best idea, millions now rely upon it. Expanding it is not a good idea.

    Socialism has degrees and to the extent a society is economically successful enough, it might afford them for a while, but eventually their cost will cause negative effects.

    If you monitor the western socialist adventures, most of them were implemented soon after WWII in nations that had almost full employment with previously dynamic capitalist economies. It was a burden. However, look to any economy that started with socialism and you won't find a vibrant economy. Example, look to Venezuela or Cuba. Only the capitalist elements provide success; the socialist element degrade life overall and the economy overall.
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  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    I'm not stopping at 25 words.
    We all now know that SU is not Donald Trump.

  6. #66
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    It always bugs me when statements like this get thrown out there.

    Eight years ago, it was all about how Utah would never elect a Black man because we are racist. (Sure...it had NOTHING to do with Obama or his party.)

    Are you really now trying to push that Utah doesn't like Hillary simply because she is a woman? (And, conversely, that it has NOTHING to do with who Hillary is or her party?)
    Exactly. SU is peeved that Utah dumped Trump so he is making up crap in an attempt to save face in his lifelong campaign to discredit Utah/Mormons.

    SU is pretending that the only distinguishing feature of Bernie is that he is a socialist while also ignoring that Hillary has socialist tendencies. He is also directly implying that the only distinguishing feature of Hillary is that she is woman, a notion that that is extremely sexist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    Get the Republicans to put Condoleeza Rice on the ballot and I suspect that you'd get to see Utah vote for both a Woman and a Black person in the same damn election!

    I don't think this is about race OR gender.
    That already happened. Mia Love. Yet another fact overlooked by SU.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Exactly. SU is peeved that Utah dumped Trump so he is making up crap in an attempt to save face in his lifelong campaign to discredit Utah/Mormons.

    SU is pretending that the only distinguishing feature of Bernie is that he is a socialist while also ignoring that Hillary has socialist tendencies. He is also directly implying that the only distinguishing feature of Hillary is that she is woman, a notion that that is extremely sexist.



    That already happened. Mia Love. Yet another fact overlooked by SU.
    Utah has distinct voting tendencies, but those tendencies don't seem to be tied to misogyny or racism. This election is trying the faith of the elected, the very elite.
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Utah has distinct voting tendencies, but those tendencies don't seem to be tied to misogyny or racism. This election is trying the faith of the elected, the very elite.
    I agree the GOP party boss is a black guy. I can't stand him. Al Jackson, Frank's dad, served in the state senate, also black. I don't think Utah voters are more racist than voter in the Pacific Northwest.

  9. #69
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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  10. #70
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    This is awesome for Seattle.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/n...q2-queens.html

    I wonder why the Washington Post never stirred up opposition in Northern Virginia? Makes no sense.
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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    This is awesome for Seattle.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/n...q2-queens.html

    I wonder why the Washington Post never stirred up opposition in Northern Virginia? Makes no sense.
    You must be confused. AOC and the NYC city council are claiming victory.

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  12. #72
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    You must be confused. AOC and the NYC city council are claiming victory.

    Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
    Which is why I put this in the socialism thread. Their radicalism is too much even for the New York Times (which bears a lot of responsibity for this happening) and Governor Cuomo.

    Socialism isn’t working in China either. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-chi..._copyURL_share
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Which is why I put this in the socialism thread. Their radicalism is too much even for the New York Times (which bears a lot of responsibity for this happening) and Governor Cuomo.

    Socialism isn’t working in China either. https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-chi..._copyURL_share
    China has pretty much zero social programs and does not "free healthcare." It's a capitalist totalitarian state run by the Communist Party.

    Weird statement on the NY Times.
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  14. #74
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post

    Weird statement on the NY Times.
    It's not weird. The NY Times has repeatedly trashed Amazon as bad for Seattle and then as not good for New York--on its front pages--even since long before the HQ2 thing. Then when Amazon pulled the plug, the NY Times editorial board bawled that local politicians had driven Amazon away because of narrow special interests and this was a bad thing. Too bad, NY Times. You screwed up.
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    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Last edited by Walter Sobchak; 02-27-2019 at 02:06 PM.
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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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  17. #77
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Hopefully all these young socialists will contemplate whether or not “it is still OK to have children” and decide NO and not perpetuate their stupid DNA.

    All these people should have spent a couple of years in the former USSR in the 90s like me and seen what a horrible thing socialism is: poverty and corruption and desperation.

    How are the German and Korean experiments not enough for these people? You could never have better evidence of the superiority of capitalism.

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    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    At least the author has the good sense to put "socialism" in quotes, since it has been redefined by conservatives (like yourself).

    The left: We should have Single-Payer healthcare.
    The right: That's socialism! (It's not.)
    The left: We should provide free tuition to public universities.
    The right: That's socialism! (Again, it's not.)
    The left (as represented by BS): We should model our country after Scandinavian ones like Denmark!
    The right: Those countries are socialist! (They aren't.)

    [rinse repeat ad nausem]

    Young people everywhere, burdened by college debt and unable to find affordable health care: "Socialism" sounds pretty good.

    So who is to blame for the rise of "socialism"?

    Maybe look in the mirror.
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  19. #79
    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Right it’s the hybrid “third party payer” programs in education and health care that are a huge problem.

    More federal loans and other available loans for students just leads to colleges ramping up their prices and helping themselves to more loan money.

    More federal and private health insurance just leads to hospitals/drug companies ramping up their prices and helping themselves to more insurance money.

    No surprise that costs/debts are out of control in education and health care. It’s “other people’s money” so of course it is spent like crazy.

  20. #80
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    Right it’s the hybrid “third party payer” programs in education and health care that are a huge problem.

    More federal loans and other available loans for students just leads to colleges ramping up their prices and helping themselves to more loan money.

    More federal and private health insurance just leads to hospitals/drug companies ramping up their prices and helping themselves to more insurance money.

    No surprise that costs/debts are out of control in education and health care. It’s “other people’s money” so of course it is spent like crazy.
    Not sure why you are resorting to using reasonable arguments here when it is much easier to cry "socialism" to manufacture consent by appealing to people's fears.
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  21. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Not sure why you are resorting to using reasonable arguments here when it is much easier to cry "socialism" to manufacture consent by appealing to people's fears.
    Lol. Such a martyr.

  22. #82
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Why the hell should we care what Denmark does? Is it some kind of paragon? We have different history, values, and problems. We innovate and Denmark coattails on our innovation. I donít need to knock Denmark. Itís just that citing Denmark is not persuasive.
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    yes other than denmarks higher rates of literacy, life expectancy, measurable happiness, infant survival rate, etc., what do those assholes know?

  24. #84
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    yes other than denmarks higher rates of literacy, life expectancy, measurable happiness, infant survival rate, etc., what do those assholes know?
    Haha "measurable happiness" wtf does that mean?

    Denmark has 5.8 million population and we have 323 million. We also have a federalist system of laws and state governments. Our massive heath care industry that generates most of the world's health care innovation is also largely privately or local government owned. What do you propose to do? The federal government takes it from the owners?

    You're even dumber than AOC.
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  25. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Haha "measurable happiness" wtf does that mean?

    Denmark has 5.8 million population and we have 323 million. We also have a federalist system of laws and state governments. Our massive heath care industry that generates most of the world's innovation is also privately owned. What do you propose to do? The federal government takes it from the owners?

    You're even dumber than AOC.
    i'm actually pretty smart bro.
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  26. #86
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Not sure why you are resorting to using reasonable arguments here when it is much easier to cry "socialism" to manufacture consent by appealing to people's fears.
    BS and AOC call it socialism. Are you saying you're smarter than them?
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  27. #87
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    i'm actually pretty smart bro.
    Of course you are and I, for one, am ever so grateful that you are always willing to remind us immediately if there is any risk that we forget. Bro.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  28. #88
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    At least the author has the good sense to put "socialism" in quotes, since it has been redefined by conservatives (like yourself).


    The left (as represented by BS): We should model our country after Scandinavian ones like Denmark!
    The right: Those countries are socialist! (They aren't.)


    Meh. It seems that more and more folks on the right argue that Scandanavian countries are actually very friendly to capitalism and free markets, as your link would imply.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lxD-gikpMs

    The nonsense that BS/AOC are peddling is more Venezuela than Denmark.
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  29. #89
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Of course you are and I, for one, am ever so grateful that you are always willing to remind us immediately if there is any risk that we forget. Bro.
    No, what he is doing is responding calmly and with some humor to SU's jab. You should try that sometime.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  30. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    [/INDENT]

    Meh. It seems that more and more folks on the right argue that Scandanavian countries are actually very friendly to capitalism and free markets, as your link would imply.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lxD-gikpMs

    The nonsense that BS/AOC are peddling is more Venezuela than Denmark.
    Any time anyone proposes doing something remotely similar to how a scandanavian nation does it (for example, health care) the right screams socialism from the rooftops. It’s disingenious for them to be pedantic about this. Bernie is not proposing nationalising oil companies.
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