Why mormons disaffect from church

[ERCougar]

Didn't Fowler precede Borg? I like both of them and Fowler's introduction useful. Perhaps my memory is faulty though.

They're sort of contemporaries (Borg died earlier this year), but really not at all comparable,IMO. They're not writing to the same audience. Fowler is a researcher and his writing isn't meant to be prescriptive.

[Topper]

They're sort of contemporaries (Borg died earlier this year), but really not at all comparable,IMO. They're not writing to the same audience. Fowler is a researcher and his writing isn't meant to be prescriptive.

I read Fowler before Borg. That is probably what I remember.

[CardiacCoug]

What's your reason that millions (or at least a lot) of LDS adults claim to believe these things?

My guess is that at least half of adults on this earth believe in something supernatural. No?

Yeah you're right I guess. Most people are stupid.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-nea...eve-in-angels/

[byu71]

Yeah you're right I guess. Most people are stupid.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-nea...eve-in-angels/

It would be easy if it were that simple. James Talmage, Mitt Romney, Steve Young are just off the top of my head people who I consider to be anything but dumb. Then there are numerous friends and relatives I know who are anything but dumb. Yet, they are believers. I know you weren't calling people who believe stupid, but I have thought of this bright people believing concept before and haven't come to the conclusion they are faking it, so they must believe.

[Omaha 680]

Some of my postmo acquaintances have a hard time reconciling their strong belief that the church is bogus with their understanding that it is led by fairly intelligent men. So several come to the conclusion that many leaders know the church is a fraud, but they perpetuate it. That is way too cynical for me. Even though I assert the church is just another man-made, organized religion, I generally feel like the leaders are well intentioned, and that they buy into its authenticity. Before my disaffection, I genuinely bought into its authenticity. So, I get that point of view. But now I see it as a rational delusion. That doesn't make the leaders or members less intelligent or well-intentioned in my view. They have reasons (more or less sophisticated) for believing, just as I did when I was a devotee.

I'm only a casual observer, but it seems your tone is much different in this thread than the "who said it best thread" and you are getting some thoughtful responses. Something to think about.

[imanihonjin]

Some of my postmo acquaintances have a hard time reconciling their strong belief that the church is bogus with their understanding that it is led by fairly intelligent men. So several come to the conclusion that many leaders know the church is a fraud, but they perpetuate it. That is way too cynical for me. Even though I assert the church is just another man-made, organized religion, I generally feel like the leaders are well intentioned, and that they buy into its authenticity. Before my disaffection, I genuinely bought into its authenticity. So, I get that point of view. But now I see it as a rational delusion. That doesn't make the leaders or members less intelligent or well-intentioned in my view. They have reasons (more or less sophisticated) for believing, just as I did when I was a devotee.

If you wonder why you are welcomed with flowers of kindness, re-read this post....it should give you some clues.

[Katy Lied]

About angels, there is no dog in the angel fight for anybody. No church inherently rejects the idea of angels. Even for atheists or agnostics, you can strip away enough of the supernatural to come up with a likely and rational angel. (For example, defining angel as a neighbor who gets a "feeling", and comes to rescue Timmy from the well.) Good people who do courageous things once in a while.

This is why people can easily believe in angels. There is no angel baggage. Now ask people if they believe in Joseph Smith, or LHR, or the Pope- there is a lot more baggage there. Ask people if they believe in their local preacher or arch bishop- much more polemic.

[imanihonjin]

Interesting that you each have opposite reaction to the same post.

Omaha 680, reference something particular from the other thread where you feel the tone is "much different".

Do you honestly expect to receive a different reaction from people when you label something that they hold sacred with terms such as "man-made organized religion" or "rational delusion"? If you want to have an honest discussion where people respect your thoughts, perhaps you should approach the topic in a way that invites such discussion rather than start from a position that you are right and that anyone who disagrees with you is not only wrong, but delusional.

[byu71]

We all have cognitive dissonance, irrationality or delusion about something. Why is my opinion so upsetting to you? So what if I perceive it as "man-made" or a "delusion". You are welcome to your opinion whether I agree with it or not. I'm not personally attacking you or any one else. And I don't take it as a personal attack against me if a post criticizes my "agnosticism" or "non-religious".

Just an observation. You seem to have taken something personal.

Don't ask me to now go back through all the posts and tell you what you took personal. My interest in this thread has it's limits. I hope you don't take that personal.

[imanihonjin]

We all have cognitive dissonance, irrationality or delusion about something. Why is my opinion so upsetting to you? So what if I perceive it as "man-made" or a "delusion". You are welcome to your opinion whether I agree with it or not. I'm not personally attacking you or any one else. And I don't take it as a personal attack against me if a post criticizes my "agnosticism" or "non-religious".

If you can't see it, don't let me get in you way....carry on dropping deuces and wondering why people don't engage with you in a respectful way.

[Katy Lied]

I'm just interested in what your wife thinks of your theory.

[Katy Lied]

You mean you chose your disaffection from church over your relationship. All your wife wanted to do was keep playing by the rules that you both decided to live by when you got married.

This is why I admire Jay Santos so much, and JIC and a few others. Honorable.

[Goatnapper'96]

You mean you chose your disaffection from church over your relationship. All your wife wanted to do was keep playing by the rules that you both decided to live by when you got married.

This is why I admire Jay Santos so much, and JIC and a few others. Honorable.

I don't admire Jay Santos. I am pretty sure he is white and trying to get special treatment by pretending to be Hispanic. Let the record state I will not be Rachel Dolezale'd. I like JIC, but that is mostly because he lived through hanging out with the toughest kid I know of from Carbon County. I have never seen pictures of JIC so he might be a real Hispanic as well.

Optimojo is trying to hard to be composed with the "why does my opinion scare you?" Shortly he will break out that it just "takes too long to travel from your head to your fist." I am sure he will fill his facebook page with pictures of his hands making the heart shape and whatnot. But with the wife comment one can see that there is some deeper angst. I think it was one of our noble wankers, Professor Woot, who once said: "intellectual integrity is a brutal mistress." Noble, but brutal!

[kccougar]

Optimojo is trying to hard to be composed with the "why does my opinion scare you?" Shortly he will break out that it just "takes too long to travel from your head to your fist." I am sure he will fill his facebook page with pictures of his hands making the heart shape and whatnot. But with the wife comment one can see that there is some deeper angst. I think it was one of our noble wankers, Professor Woot, who once said: "intellectual integrity is a brutal mistress." Noble, but brutal!

Or maybe he'll just call his mother an asshole again.

[Paperback Writer]

I don't admire Jay Santos. I am pretty sure he is white and trying to get special treatment by pretending to be Hispanic. Let the record state I will not be Rachel Dolezale'd.

What kind of Spanish name is Jay??? When I was in HS Spanish class, I sat next to someone named "Jay" and he had to change his name to "Jose". His first pick of Spanish names was "Jesus" but Senora Inguanzo nixed that.