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Thread: The Sports Officials Thread

  1. #121
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    It's a great time to be a woman official. All levels are looking to elevate women officials who are ready. If any of you have daughters in their 20s who enjoy sports, encourage them to start high school basketball or football officiating. If they are good they will be in the NBA or NFL in 15 years.
    You considering making a change?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    You considering making a change?

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    Hmmm...intriguing strategy.

    In other news, the game I worked last night ended 64-40, and there were at least 3 additional touchdowns called back by penalties. One of the ones called back was a hurdling penalty where the runner jumped right over the tackler's head as he was breaking down and continued 60 yards down the sidelines. It was so impressive I felt bad having to call it back. The game had a little of everything except tackling.

    We work four man crews and the wings have line of scrimmage to the goal line so I am a bit sore roday.

  3. #123
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    I'm SJ for my opening round playoff game. First time not working one of the wings and first time in a 6 man crew. Any tips from the veterans out there?

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    I'm SJ for my opening round playoff game. First time not working one of the wings and first time in a 6 man crew. Any tips from the veterans out there?
    Yeah it's not much different from being a Back Judge only you have to run less. Work hard cleaning up the ball and you will look good to those in charge. Also make sure you and the wing on your side have things hammered out regarding who has catch and who has feet/sideline.

  5. #125

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    I'll give my background and bonafides. For several years I officiated high school basketball in a region with what are called Tier 1 schools (5A or 6A) that produce players such as Corey Joseph (Texas, Indiana Pacers) and his brothers. I do not know him, but I did officiate games he played in. I can however drop the name of Dyshawn Pierre (Dayton) who played pick-up with my sons at our Stake Centre, invited by another member boy who was on his high school team.

    Related, I once worked a weekend tournament for what would be an AAU equivalent league, where Nik Stauskas played as an 8th grader. He was a man among boys. Also, when I used to play pick up a lot at the Stake Centre in Toronto (I am truly a basketball scrub), I played with several guys who played D1 ball and on the Canadian National team. They let me play because I had the key to the gym.

    The problem with officiating here is it hasn't caught up with the quality of players being produced. There are a lot of old-timers who can't keep up with the pace of play, but politics keep them on the floor. It is infuriating. When I was given the opportunity to help coach at my boys high school I jumped at the chance. Teachers who coach do not get paid extra, as they are already well compensated; they do it because they love the sport. A few years ago, there was a lengthy strike (like the one I am going through now as a college prof). After which many high school teachers were bitter and refused to volunteer for extracurriculars.

    When my now 18 year old entered grade nine, after a successful football season concluded, which I helped coach, he informed me the athletic department head announced basketball tryouts and that he would be coaching both the junior (grades 9 and 10) and Varsity teams. He had been so good to my older boys, coaching them in football, basketball and Rugby that I went to him and said I will sort out my schedule and take the junior team. That lit a fire under the girls coach, who insisted she take the junior boys team. She knows the game. I am her assistant.

    Prior to my getting more involved with basketball, my kids school—the dedicated performing and visual arts school in the region—was always forced into Tier one. We would play schools where the likes of Corey Jospeh played and lose by 50, 60 and on one occasion 87 points. I convinced the coaches to petition to play in tier two. We have now won two region titles in the past four years. When I say region titles, it's not as grandiose as in the US. They just don't take sports as seriously here. Only tier one teams go to a provincial playoff. Tier two or lower tier teams play for championships in their respective regions. But it is great fun nonetheless.

    Football season ended last week. My grade nine had to practice with the varsity, not because he is good but because not enough kids came out to form a junior team. We are forced to play in Tier one. We lost every game, but in the last game we took the fourth place team to four overtimes losing on a "rouge." It's a Canadian football rule, where if you punt the ball out of the opposing teams end zone you get one point. We lost 21 - 20.

    Older now, I currently only officiate, maybe once a week, in a men's league in Toronto that used to have a number of players in it who played D1 ball in the states, in the Canadian National team system, or at a Canadian University. In recent months the league has really gone down hill so I focus on coaching. The leagues here have all adopted FIBA regulations in the past year. So you can ask me all you want about shot clocks and the differences between regulations.
    Last edited by tooblue; 11-10-2017 at 11:44 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    The problem with officiating here is it hasn't caught up with the quality of players being produced. There are a lot of old-timers who can't keep up with the pace of play, but politics keep them on the floor. It is infuriating.
    I'm relatively new to HS officiating, but the political aspect seems to be pretty prevalent in every association. I see plenty of guys who either are hanging on far too long, or probably were never very good to begin with and just like the extra money. That's fine if they want to stick around, but they shouldn't keep getting the best games and work playoffs at the expense of people who are working harder, can move better, and have the desire to move up.

    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    We lost every game, but in the last game we took the fourth place team to four overtimes losing on a "rouge." It's a Canadian football rule, where if you punt the ball out of the opposing teams end zone you get one point. We lost 21 - 20.
    That is the weirdest rule I've ever heard. Looking forward to more stories.

  7. #127

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    Every association has issues with old guys that should either retire or at least be demoted as their skills deteriorate. Unfortunately this issue deeply affects the politics of officials organizations.

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    That is the weirdest rule I've ever heard. Looking forward to more stories.
    Football is dying a slow death here. When my oldest, now twenty-three played they had Tier One and Tier Two leagues. Even though the basketball teams had to play Tier One, the football team was put in Tier Two for competitive and safety reasons.

    My oldest, in his senior year, lost the football region championship on a "rouge." But in fairness, they got to the championship when my son scored a rouge in the semifinals. The way the rule works, you don't have to punt out of the end zone. If you punt it into the end zone and tackle their returner before he gets out, you score a point. My boy was the gunner on the punt team that made the tackle stopping the returner before he could get out the end zone. The 1 point was assigned to his number.

    Another funny thing about the rule. In the championship game the next week, the opposing team had already tried a rouge kicking it into our end zone. Our returner caught it and kicked it right back, which is perfectly legal. We then took over possession where he kicked it to. Teams can literally kick a punt back at the punting team. It was on the next series that the opposing team managed to get it out the end zone. Yes, it is as zany as it sounds.

    High school Junior football teams play Canadian rules, but with four downs. Varsity teams play three downs. Teams have to pass the ball and have good kicking games to be competitive.

    Edit: even if you just down it in the other teams end zone, it is worth one point. That's why teams have to run it or kick it out.
    Last edited by tooblue; 11-10-2017 at 12:32 PM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Football is dying a slow death here. When my oldest, now twenty-three played they had Tier One and Tier Two leagues. Even though the basketball teams had to play Tier One, the football team was put in Tier Two for competitive and safety reasons.

    My oldest, in his senior year, lost the football region championship on a "rouge." But in fairness, they got to the championship when my son scored a rouge in the semifinals. The way the rule works, you don't have to punt out of the end zone. If you punt it into the end zone and tackle their returner before he gets out, you score a point. My boy was the gunner on the punt team that made the tackle stopping the returner before he could get out the end zone. The 1 point was assigned to his number.

    Another funny thing about the rule. In the championship game the next week, the opposing team had already tried a rouge kicking it into our end zone. Our returner caught it and kicked it right back, which is perfectly legal. We then took over possession where he kicked it to. Teams can literally kick a punt back at the punting team. It was on the next series that the opposing team managed to get it out the end zone. Yes, it is as zany as it sounds.

    High school Junior football teams play Canadian rules, but with four downs. Varsity teams play three downs. Teams have to pass the ball and have good kicking games to be competitive.

    Edit: even if you just down it in the other teams end zone, it is worth one point. That's why teams have to run it or kick it out.
    I see. I totally misread your OP. I missed "the opponent's end zone" and was picturing the offense punting from their own end zone and scoring a point. Not sure the actual rule is any less weird, especially given the return team can punt the ball as well. Sounds like Aussie rules. Are there any restrictions on kicking? As you know, in American HS football, legal scrimmage kicks must take place by the offense in or behind the neutral zone.

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    I see. I totally misread your OP. I missed "the opponent's end zone" and was picturing the offense punting from their own end zone and scoring a point. Not sure the actual rule is any less weird, especially given the return team can punt the ball as well. Sounds like Aussie rules. Are there any restrictions on kicking? As you know, in American HS football, legal scrimmage kicks must take place by the offense in or behind the neutral zone.
    There are gunners and the five yard no yardage rule. As both a coach and official you have to pay attention to players who are considered "on-side" during a punt. It's important, because with only three downs, teams punt a lot.

    During a punt, the only player that is typically considered on-side, is the punter. However, you can put a maximum of two gunners in an on-side position. What that means is, the gunners, though they can be spread out to the sideline, on the snap of the ball, have to start their run towards the line of scrimmage from behind the punter, even if it's only a half a yard.

    The gunners and the punter are the only players who can down a punted football where it lands, or tackle a returner immediately upon catching the punt. All other players on the punt team must give a generous five yards to the punt returner and cannot touch the ball, until it is touched by the return team. If they do touch the ball or interfere with the catch in any way it is a five yard penalty.

    Also, if the punt team players, not in an onside position, do not give the five yards, even if the returner drops (muffs) the punt, the punting team can't recover it as a fumble. It is called as a five yard penalty. When you punt in Canadian football, you are truly turning the ball over to the other team. Except, if you can punt it out of the other teams end zone (which is 20 yards), or down it in the opposing teams end zone you, your team gets one point.
    Last edited by tooblue; 11-10-2017 at 01:45 PM.

  11. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    Every association has issues with old guys that should either retire or at least be demoted as their skills deteriorate. Unfortunately this issue deeply affects the politics of officials organizations.
    Outside of coaching, one of the reasons I mostly got out of officiating high school games is because there was a move by local coaches to decertify the association I was in, due to the disfunction of too many old guys, or guys getting games just to get paid. A lot of the issues have been sorted out. They call me back every so often to pick up games, because I have a flexible schedule. I'll work Tier One, or lower tiers and not the tier my team plays in.

    The real problem is, varsity games will start at 2:00 pm here, followed by a junior (grades 10 and 9) game at 3:30. There just are enough guys who can get to a school at those times, because younger guys are working. Coaches won't schedule evening games because they aren't getting paid any extra to coach, so they often are stuck with retirees or shift workers who go for a smoke in between quarters. When I show up coaches are pleased as punch.
    Last edited by tooblue; 11-10-2017 at 01:48 PM.

  12. #132

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    In Canada, Punts Can Be Punted Back the Other Way for a Touchdown

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...or-a-touchdown

  13. #133
    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
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    I saw and played lots of Canadian football growing up, and I never saw anyone actually use a gunner or kick the ball out of the endzone.

    I do remember when our junior high team lost on a rouge and there was second guessing on why they didn't try to punt it out of the endzone.

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    In Canada, Punts Can Be Punted Back the Other Way for a Touchdown

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...or-a-touchdown
    The return punt in that video was impressive. Unless Canadian football plays on a shorter field.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Student View Post
    The return punt in that video was impressive. Unless Canadian football plays on a shorter field.
    Based on the markings on the field, I'd estimate about 50 yards on the return punt. Not too shabby.
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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Student View Post
    The return punt in that video was impressive. Unless Canadian football plays on a shorter field.

    Longer field. Mid field is the 55 yard line. It's much wider too.

  17. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lost Student View Post
    The return punt in that video was impressive. Unless Canadian football plays on a shorter field.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...ball_field.png

    They also play with bigger balls ... at least they used to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beefytee View Post
    I saw and played lots of Canadian football growing up, and I never saw anyone actually use a gunner or kick the ball out of the endzone.

    I do remember when our junior high team lost on a rouge and there was second guessing on why they didn't try to punt it out of the endzone.
    When we have the right personnel we use gunners, and we always go for the rouge, if a field goal is out of range. Points are points.
    Last edited by tooblue; 11-10-2017 at 07:02 PM.

  19. #139
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    I worked my first playoff game as SJ on Saturday (it was freezing). Shaka was right, it was very chill back there. Thanks for the pointers that made me look good. I just got a quarterfinal assignment in the top division. I'm pretty pumped. This time I'm FJ which is even easier (no game clock duties and the Rs in our association typically will take the play clock away from the FJ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    . So you can ask me all you want about shot clocks and the differences between regulations.
    What is your favorite brand of shot clock?



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  21. #141

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    I officiated three games late last night in the league I have been privately associated with for many years. As I mentioned, the quality of play has really gone downhill, but the dynamic in terms of team make-up hasn’t changed. The multi-cultural universal love of basketball is amazing. I feel blessed to live where I live.

    There are culturally centric leagues. For example, a few years ago, I was part of an ongoing contract with a Muslim basketball league. Games were held at their mosque, which was set up similar to large stake centre. At one end of the full-size gym was a stage, under which there were pull-out drawers that contained prayer rugs instead of tables and chairs. The teams prayed before every game, and just like church ball the otherwise affable and pleasant congregants turned into crazed maniacs immediately upon tip-off.

    Game 1:

    Team ‘A’ is an old guy, Caribbean squad. Most likely from Jamaica, Dominica, or St. Vincent, either originally or who are one generation removed. Athletic, they play above the rim and overwhelm other teams physically. This team in particular isn’t good, except the core guys always pick up one or two really good, serious players who carry the team. The whole squad complains like they are NBA stars entitled to every call by virtue of the fact they graced the gym with their presence.

    Team ‘B’ is a group of nice Jewish boys. Most come into the gym wearing a Kippah. They aren’t terribly athletic, but are organized and mostly pleasant. In terms of style of play, they are the epitome of your Mountain View Third Ward church ball team, whose only chance at winning is to jack up forty 3’s a game. They win more often than they lose, because sometimes all five guys on the floor get hot at once. Last night was not their night. There’s always one guy on every team that’s a jerk, but really on this team they know who they are, and are happy when they win, and affable when they lose.

    Result: Team ‘A’ in a blowout.

    Game 2:

    Team ‘C’ is a typical South East Asian team. Small, good ball handlers, decent shooters and most importantly organized. Like the Chinese teams they run offensive sets and out of bounds plays. They regularly beat bigger, better and more athletic teams because they out execute them, usually building a big lead in the first half, and hang on until the end. They're kind of your Cinderella first round upset type team—a 12 that beats a 5. That’s what happened last night. Exciting game to officiate.

    Team ‘D’ is a young, college age Caribbean squad. Guys who are long and crazy athletic, but think they are much better than they actually are. Unlike their old guy counterparts, only one or two of them—not all five—think their crap doesn’t smell. Low basketball IQ doomed them last night. There’s no way they should lose to a team like Team C, except at the end they panicked and started playing one-on-one iso ball.

    Result: Team ‘C’ hung on for a five point victory.

    Game 3:

    Team ‘E’ is your typical upper middle-class / wealthy neighborhood team (one guy was wearing a pair of Big Baller kicks). Mostly Chinese guys with one white guy (fouling machine trying to tell everyone what to do), one black guy (who can take over games, but is reluctant), and two guys of middle-eastern heritage. They probably all played on their high school team together. Not great, they're certainly not bad, just solid.

    Note about this particular team is their best player has played in the league for a few years as a mercenary type, moving from team to team. This is his first year where he organized and brought together his own squad. Mid to late-twenties, his mother and father come to watch EVERY game. They know me by name.

    Team ‘F’ is your, every league has one, angry Caribbean squad. Had to break up a fight among teammates and called two technical fouls. Yes, I carry my own liability insurance. Teams like this give leagues a bad name. They’re a mixed batch bunch, who always have a lone-wolf Eastern European or Russian mercenary on the squad. Often the best player on the floor, the Eastern European or Russians rarely pay to play—someone else picks up their fee.

    Result: A nail biter, with the big Russian stepping up to hit foul shots to close out the victory for team ‘F’

    Other teams in the league: The Armenians have dominated the past few years in the absence of the really good Chinese teams, who have five Jeremy Lin's on their squad. They are busy playing in huge Chinese culture tournaments, here, in New York and Miami. I've worked one of the tournaments. Teams fly-in from China to play. It's incredible. There are also one or two Muslim teams that leave their mosque leagues and one or two Sikh teams any given year in the league. I've often thought of doing a documentary about the league, players and the cultural diversity—it's incredible.
    Last edited by tooblue; 11-14-2017 at 02:34 PM.

  22. #142
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    I officiated three games late last night in the league I have been privately associated with for many years. As I mentioned, the quality of play has really gone downhill, but the dynamic in terms of team make-up hasn’t changed. The multi-cultural universal love of basketball is amazing. I feel blessed to live where I live.

    There are culturally centric leagues. For example, a few years ago, I was part of an ongoing contract with a Muslim basketball league. Games were held at their mosque, which was set up similar to large stake centre. At one end of the full-size gym was a stage, under which there were pull-out drawers that contained prayer rugs instead of tables and chairs. The teams prayed before every game, and just like church ball the otherwise affable and pleasant congregants turned into crazed maniacs immediately upon tip-off.

    Game 1:

    Team ‘A’ is an old guy, Caribbean squad. Most likely from Jamaica, Dominica, or St. Vincent, either originally or who are one generation removed. Athletic, they play above the rim and overwhelm other teams physically. This team in particular isn’t good, except the core guys always pick up one or two really good, serious players who carry the team. The whole squad complains like they are NBA stars entitled to every call by virtue of the fact they graced the gym with their presence.

    Team ‘B’ is a group of nice Jewish boys. Most come into the gym wearing a Kippah. They aren’t terribly athletic, but are organized and mostly pleasant. In terms of style of play, they are the epitome of your Mountain View Third Ward church ball team, whose only chance at winning is to jack up forty 3’s a game. They win more often than they lose, because sometimes all five guys on the floor get hot at once. Last night was not their night. There’s always one guy on every team that’s a jerk, but really on this team they know who they are, and are happy when they win, and affable when they lose.

    Result: Team ‘A’ in a blowout.

    Game 2:

    Team ‘C’ is a typical South East Asian team. Small, good ball handlers, decent shooters and most importantly organized. Like the Chinese teams they run offensive sets and out of bounds plays. They regularly beat bigger, better and more athletic teams because they out execute them, usually building a big lead in the first half, and hang on until the end. They're kind of your Cinderella first round upset type team—a 12 that beats a 5. That’s what happened last night. Exciting game to officiate.

    Team ‘D’ is a young, college age Caribbean squad. Guys who are long and crazy athletic, but think they are much better than they actually are. Unlike their old guy counterparts, only one or two of them—not all five—think their crap doesn’t smell. Low basketball IQ doomed them last night. There’s no way they should lose to a team like Team C, except at the end they panicked and started playing one-on-one iso ball.

    Result: Team ‘C’ hung on for a five point victory.

    Game 3:

    Team ‘E’ is your typical upper middle-class / wealthy neighborhood team (one guy was wearing a pair of Big Baller kicks). Mostly Chinese guys with one white guy (fouling machine trying to tell everyone what to do), one black guy (who can take over games, but is reluctant), and two guys of middle-eastern heritage. They probably all played on their high school team together. Not great, they're certainly not bad, just solid.

    Note about this particular team is their best player has played in the league for a few years as a mercenary type, moving from team to team. This is his first year where he organized and brought together his own squad. Mid to late-twenties, his mother and father come to watch EVERY game. They know me by name.

    Team ‘F’ is your, every league has one, angry Caribbean squad. Had to break up a fight among teammates and called two technical fouls. Yes, I carry my own liability insurance. Teams like this give leagues a bad name. They’re a mixed batch bunch, who always have a lone-wolf Eastern European or Russian mercenary on the squad. Often the best player on the floor, the Eastern European or Russians rarely pay to play—someone else picks up their fee.

    Result: A nail biter, with the big Russian stepping up to hit foul shots to close out the victory for team ‘F’

    Other teams in the league: The Armenians have dominated the past few years in the absence of the really good Chinese teams, who have five Jeremy Lin's on their squad. They are busy playing in huge Chinese culture tournaments, here, in New York and Miami. I've worked one of the tournaments. Teams fly-in from China to play. It's incredible. There are also one or two Muslim teams that leave their mosque leagues and one or two Sikh teams any given year in the league. I've often thought of doing a documentary about the league, players and the cultural diversity—it's incredible.
    That was interesting. A documentary of that league would certainly be something to see.
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