ISIS = Islamic State = Bad People

[ERCougar]

http://m.samharris.org/blog/item/sle...ard-armageddon

I'm moving more and more towards Maher and Harris on this-- Islam has uniquely problematic roots. We count on Muslims to not take their religious texts seriously.

They rely on modern, secular values—for instance, tolerance of diversity and respect for human rights—as a basis for reinterpreting and ignoring the most despicable parts of their holy books. But they nevertheless demand that we respect the idea of revelation, and this leaves us perpetually vulnerable to more literal readings of scripture.

(One could of course say this about Christians--and Mormons--but just not to the same extent.)

[ERCougar]

There are more Muslims in Ethiopia than Saudi Arabia. 1.57 billion total in the world, around 25% of all people in the world are Muslim. Indonesia, India, and Bangladesh each have tens and tens and tens of millions more Muslims than Saudi Arabia. Egypt doesn't even crack the Top 7 of countries with the most Muslims.

• Indonesia 204,847,000 (88.1%)
• Pakistan 178,097,000 (96.4%)
• India 177,286,000 (14.6%)
• Bangladesh 145,312,000 (90.4%)
• Nigeria 75,728,000 (47.9%)
• Iran 74,819,000 (99.6%)
• Turkey 74,660,000 (98.6%)
• Egypt 73,746,000 (90%)
• Algeria 34,780,000 (98.2%)
• Morocco 32,381,000 (99.9%)
• Iraq 31,108,000 (98.9%)
• Sudan 30,855,000 (97%)^[82]
• Afghanistan 29,047,000 (99.8%)
• Ethiopia 28,721,000 (33.8%)
• Uzbekistan 26,833,000 (96.5%)
• Saudi Arabia 25,493,000 (97.1%)
• Yemen 24,023,000 (99.0%)
• China 23,308,000 (1.8%)
• Syria 20,895,000 (92.8%)
• Malaysia 17,139,000 (61.4%)
• Russia 16,379,000 (11.7%)
• Niger 15,627,000 (98.3%)

The issues are with Muslims...Indonesia is a classic example of chill Muslims. The issue is with extremists in certain countries who make the rest of the Muslim world look bad. Imagine if people judged Christianity by how the Slavs acted.

The chill Muslim model: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/05/22...racy.html?_r=0

[wuapinmon]

The chill Muslim model: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/05/22...racy.html?_r=0

That's the political reality. The social reality is that those persecutions are committed by the few; the vast majority there are tolerant of others....but also tolerant of the rabble-rousers. 150,000 assholes among 250,000,000 doesn't = intolerance. The problem is the Saudi Wahhabists (Irhabists, if you ask me) paying for schools and imams to preach their twisted version of Sunnism. But, I've not been there, so all my knowledge is from the thoughts and interpretations of others. I admit a vast lacuna in true knowledge about Indonesian culture.

[ERCougar]

That's the political reality. The social reality is that those persecutions are committed by the few; the vast majority there are tolerant of others....but also tolerant of the rabble-rousers. 150,000 assholes among 250,000,000 doesn't = intolerance. The problem is the Saudi Wahhabists (Irhabists, if you ask me) paying for schools and imams to preach their twisted version of Sunnism. But, I've not been there, so all my knowledge is from the thoughts and interpretations of others. I admit a vast lacuna in true knowledge about Indonesian culture.

Did you read the Harris essay i posted? No one's claiming the majority are evil. However, the Koran gives the nutters license to be evil, in the name of religion, and for that, the texts ought to be scorned.

If you had a neighbor who was a nice guy, but privately held white supremacist views, since being openly racist in Georgia probably doesn't work out very well, would you defend his views since, you know, he and most other white supremacists aren't burning crosses? Or at least treat them as any sort of legitimate worldview? What does it say about the religion when the most respectable members are the ones who to large extent disregard it?

And sure, I think poverty likely breeds ideologues, although I think this is overstated--OBL, the 9/11 bombers, and others didn't come from poor backgrounds, IIRC. Still--doesn't change Harris' point about the problem of legitimizing Islam.

[CardiacCoug]

http://m.samharris.org/blog/item/sle...ard-armageddon

I'm moving more and more towards Maher and Harris on this-- Islam has uniquely problematic roots. We count on Muslims to not take their religious texts seriously.

" They rely on modern, secular values—for instance, tolerance of diversity and respect for human rights—as a basis for reinterpreting and ignoring the most despicable parts of their holy books. But they nevertheless demand that we respect the idea of revelation, and this leaves us perpetually vulnerable to more literal readings of scripture."

(One could of course day this about Christians--and Mormons--but just not to the same extent.)

Yep, religion is fine and maybe even a net good for 99% of so-called "religious" people.

The problem is the 1% who deep down at a very fundamental level really believe. See the Taliban, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Fundamentalist LDS, the Tamil Tigers, Aum Shinrikyo, David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.

When you combine true belief in the crazy abstract theology with power/weapons it is a truly scary thing.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Given that the Koran is pretty clear about how to treat infidels (i.e., not kindly), I'm curious how chill Muslims can alter that view without claiming some prophetic gift, which I assume would be blasphemy. One can rip on LDS claims of continuing revelation, but at least it gives us a way to get around some of the nutty or at least erroneous things found in scripture or the utterances of earlier leaders.

[ERCougar]

Yep, religion is fine and maybe even a net good for 99% of so-called "religious" people.

The problem is the 1% who deep down at a very fundamental level really believe. See the Taliban, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Fundamentalist LDS, the Tamil Tigers, Aum Shinrikyo, David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.

When you combine true belief in the crazy abstract theology with power/weapons it is a truly scary thing.

Look at that list of groups. Which are the most dangerous to outsiders?

[CardiacCoug]

Look at that list of groups. Which are the most dangerous to outsiders?

Yep as much as a lot of people like to think that all religions are pretty much equal I think it's reasonable to say that the "fruit" of Islam has been turning a part of the world that invented modern numbers, algebra, algorithms, etc. and was way in front of Europe at one point into the worst part of the world, the worst that humanity has to offer right now.

[wuapinmon]

Did you read the Harris essay i posted? No one's claiming the majority are evil. However, the Koran gives the nutters license to be evil, in the name of religion, and for that, the texts ought to be scorned.

If you had a neighbor who was a nice guy, but privately held white supremacist views, since being openly racist in Georgia probably doesn't work out very well, would you defend his views since, you know, he and most other white supremacists aren't burning crosses? Or at least treat them as any sort of legitimate worldview? What does it say about the religion when the most respectable members are the ones who to large extent disregard it?

And sure, I think poverty likely breeds ideologues, although I think this is overstated--OBL, the 9/11 bombers, and others didn't come from poor backgrounds, IIRC. Still--doesn't change Harris' point about the problem of legitimizing Islam.

I did read it. His reasoning is poised on the tip of attacking outright. It feels like he wants to, but doesn't really. The piece is more a critique of our inability to ever win a war again due to our humanist tendencies and unwillingness to commit to total warfare. Islam will require a massive bloodletting; it will not legitimize itself. There will be blood. Whose? I don't know, but there will be more warfare. It's only a matter of time now before someone takes out the Saudi oil terminals.

As to your question about the most respectable members of a religion being those who least observe it. Fair point. I'm no fan of Islam, at all. Too much evil has been done it its name during my lifetime for me to praise it. But, I will defend it because of the Muslims I know personally. I know some chill Muslims, but, they are those who probably least observe it.

Given that the Koran is pretty clear about how to treat infidels (i.e., not kindly), I'm curious how chill Muslims can alter that view without claiming some prophetic gift, which I assume would be blasphemy. One can rip on LDS claims of continuing revelation, but at least it gives us a way to get around some of the nutty or at least erroneous things found in scripture or the utterances of earlier leaders.

Is Koran clear about anything? I find it a jumbled mess of contradictions. The last time I attempted to read it years ago I started noting the ways I felt it said you could AND could not do something. If people think that Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon, at least he gave it a damned narrative. The Koran is like 300 pages of Proverbs.

[LA Ute]

ISIS = Islamic State = Bad People

This is a great book, by a recognized journalist, for anyone interested in understanding the roots of modern Islamic extremism:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/140003...&robot_redir=1

[Color Me Badd Fan]

There are more Muslims in Ethiopia than Saudi Arabia. 1.57 billion total in the world, around 25% of all people in the world are Muslim. Indonesia, India, and Bangladesh each have tens and tens and tens of millions more Muslims than Saudi Arabia. Egypt doesn't even crack the Top 7 of countries with the most Muslims.

• Indonesia 204,847,000 (88.1%)
• Pakistan 178,097,000 (96.4%)
• India 177,286,000 (14.6%)
• Bangladesh 145,312,000 (90.4%)
• Nigeria 75,728,000 (47.9%)
• Iran 74,819,000 (99.6%)
• Turkey 74,660,000 (98.6%)
• Egypt 73,746,000 (90%)
• Algeria 34,780,000 (98.2%)
• Morocco 32,381,000 (99.9%)
• Iraq 31,108,000 (98.9%)
• Sudan 30,855,000 (97%)^[82]
• Afghanistan 29,047,000 (99.8%)
• Ethiopia 28,721,000 (33.8%)
• Uzbekistan 26,833,000 (96.5%)
• Saudi Arabia 25,493,000 (97.1%)
• Yemen 24,023,000 (99.0%)
• China 23,308,000 (1.8%)
• Syria 20,895,000 (92.8%)
• Malaysia 17,139,000 (61.4%)
• Russia 16,379,000 (11.7%)
• Niger 15,627,000 (98.3%)

The issues are with Muslims...Indonesia is a classic example of chill Muslims. The issue is with extremists in certain countries who make the rest of the Muslim world look bad. Imagine if people judged Christianity by how the Slavs acted.

Are the Muslims in India a "classic example of chill Muslims?" You might want to look into that one a little bit more. Same thing with Pakistan. If I were to place a bet on the next location where a nuclear weapon is actually used for its intended purpose, it would be in either Pakistan or India. Of all the countries that have nuclear weapons, Pakistan might actually be more frightening than North Korea simply because North Korea is so isolated and even China is becoming embarrassed of them. I also think this nonsense with the Kim clan has got to stop at some point within the next couple decades, and that Kim Jong Il's little bastard will get Ceausecu'd.

Indonesia might be the best example you cited, but even they have had their problems.

[PaloAltoCougar]

...
Is Koran clear about anything? I find it a jumbled mess of contradictions. The last time I attempted to read it years ago I started noting the ways I felt it said you could AND could not do something. If people think that Joseph Smith made up the Book of Mormon, at least he gave it a damned narrative. The Koran is like 300 pages of Proverbs.

I agree, although in fairness I admit I've not read the thing all the way through, or even most of it. I gave up, in part because of the confusion and contradictions. But while it clearly has passages that speak of doing away with infidels, I'm curious if there are passages that say the opposite (love your neighbor-type stuff). To my limited knowledge, the Koran is fairly unyielding in its contempt for the infidel. I'm very open to being shown otherwise, though.

[Levin]

Yep, religion is fine and maybe even a net good for 99% of so-called "religious" people.

The problem is the 1% who deep down at a very fundamental level really believe.

This is such an ignorant statement. There are hundreds and hundreds of millions who "really" believe. Most of the world's best people are people who "really" believe in their religion. They not only pose no problem; they are this world's force for good. The scary thing isn't true belief (which isn't knowledge; doubts can coexist; see Mother Teresa). It's arrogance; violence; enmity; hatred --- all of which exist in the true believers and the faithless alike, and have very little to do with religion or faith. They have everything to do with human frailties, insecurities, and flaws, which some use religion to exploit.

This statement is also hilarious. It shows a belief in your ability to read the world's hearts (the heart that matters), when instead it really just shows an arrogance that you believe most people are really like you -- "religious" in name only, only "so-called," who don't really believe. Great heart doctor; bad heart reader.

[Levin]

Yep, religion is fine and maybe even a net good for 99% of so-called "religious" people.

The problem is the 1% who deep down at a very fundamental level really believe. See the Taliban, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Fundamentalist LDS, the Tamil Tigers, Aum Shinrikyo, David Koresh, Jim Jones, etc.

When you combine true belief in the crazy abstract theology with power/weapons it is a truly scary thing.

Also, the Tamil Tigers were non-religious; they were nationalists. And Jim Jones was a self-confessed atheist; he hated Christianity. Not the only basic facts you got wrong in your list, but it's in line with the false secularist narrative of saying how true belief is the rot of everything, without getting basic facts straight. The rot of everything is arrogance coupled with ignorance, seasoned with enmity. The combination of those three things are the devil's most wondrous tools.

[ERCougar]

There are hundreds and hundreds of millions who "really" believe. Most of the world's best people are people who "really" believe in their religion.

Chew on this one for a minute.