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Thread: On abortion

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I understand where you're coming from. As an aside, I would like to get to a place where abortion only happens rarely. But as you said, that's going to take a huge coordinated effort that emphasizes contraception and other measures.

    Having said that, I think most research suggests that the consequences of abortion are relatively mild when compared to the effects of delivering unwanted children (putting aside your legitimate concerns in China). It might help to focus on women outside of the church, where the stigma of 'near murder' and consequences for sin are not as prevalent. I had an OB/GYN in med school, who claimed matter of factly that he would rather deal with the moral consequences of abortion himself than force a teen girl to carry an pregnancy to term. Back then I bristled at what I thought was his callousness to an extremely important moral dilemma. But as I've thought of that, I have more or less come around to his side. Kids make stupid mistakes all the time. If there isn't a background belief of abortion as sin, I tend to think that the costs of a teen aborting a baby would be less than the consequences of carrying a baby to term, even if it was given up for adoption. The potential of stunting a girl's education, career, and self-esteem is very real. We try to help our kids through mistakes they've made, in order to minimize their effects once they've left the house. It probably sounds very callous, but teen pregnancies are mistakes, and in most instances carrying a baby to term will curtail a life's trajectory for that girl.

    Incidentally, I agonized over questions like these while I was still an active believer. Before I made my exit, I did come to the conclusion that assisting a teen with an abortion was not sin, and that I could live with that on my conscience. Interestingly, although Mrs. NWC is pro-choice, she said 'no' when we played the hypothetical game of 'would you have an abortion' now that she isn't a believer. It does carry significant potential downsides. I do agree that abortion is not an easy decision. It shouldn't be viewed as a primary contraceptive choice (I haven't watched the video Goat posted). But in some instances it is a 'better' choice than carrying a baby to term.
    I can understand your point of view if you don't believe that life begins until such and such a date in the term of the pregnancy or until birth. However, I cannot understand the position if one believes that life begins at any point earlier than the from which they deem an abortion to be an acceptable form of contraception. If life begins at X period during a pregnancy but an an abortion until a point in time later than X is acceptable simply because of the emotional stress it will put on the mother, then why not allow termination of a child up until 2, 4, 6, 8 or 18?

    I get that the rub for when life begins is often, if not in almost all cases, driven by religious ideology, but at this point what else do we have to determine when life begins?

  2. #32
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I'm awaiting statistics on infant adoption by race to go with these anecdotal experiences. I'm open to the possibility that there is all black babies find welcoming homes, but I'm skeptical....
    Data for this study was collected in 2002 and published in 2008: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_027.pdf

    So - let me begin by admitting that this data is more than 10 years old. That aside - I suspect that the results would not be significantly different if this same study were done today. And if anything, people would probably be more open to adoption of children with disabilities and of a different race.

    This analysis has also shown that nearly 1 million women were seeking to adopt children in 2002 (i.e., they were in demand for a child), whereas the domestic supply of infants relinquished at birth or within the first month of life and available to be adopted had become virtually nonexistent.
    For a frame of reference - the data I've seen says that there were 18,000 infants adopted in the US last year. They define "infant" as a child placed with an adoptive family within a month of birth. I would guess that there may be more women looking to adopt now than were looking to adopt in 2002. Either way - 18,000 infants for 1 million moms aren't good odds for the moms.

    Women currently seeking to adopt would prefer to adopt a child younger than 2 years old, without a disability, and a single child rather than two or more siblings. However, 89% of women currently seeking to adopt would prefer or accept a child with a mild disability, 79% would prefer or accept a child 2–5 years old, and 75% would prefer or accept a set of siblings. With regard to transracial adoption, 84% of white adoption seekers would prefer or accept a black child and 95% would prefer or accept a child of a race other than black or white. Similarly, 75% of black adoption seekers would prefer or accept a white child and 93% would prefer or accept a child of another race.
    There you have it...while there are potential adoptive parents who would prefer a white child, 84% would at least accept a black child. And 95% would accept a child who was neither white nor black. So there may be less demand, and there may be more supply, and there may be reasons that adoption of a black child results in a lower adoption fee. But the reality is that there are likely more families willing to adopt than there are infants to be adopted...of any color.

    http://www.adoptivefamilies.com/articles.php?aid=523

    This adoption historian believes that adoption is less likely now than in the past due to the reduced stigma of being a single parent combined with the increased welfare benefits that help some single parents make ends meet. Her findings are consistent with what I hear from the LDSFS folks that pregnant teens are just less likely to give up a child for adoption today compared to 40 years ago. (She says 1970 was the high tide of adoption in the US). There is reason to speculate why that is, but it is what it is.

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I understand there's an emotional toll, but I guess as someone that believes in the Mormon Gospel I'd choose life and struggles for a child/teenager over not allowing a life at all. It's just my opinion, but I'd hope that women who don't even want the child would carry it to term and give it up for adoption.

    I'll also add that abortion by choice has some very ugly consequences, most of which are not seen in the US. I posted an article a couple years ago about a country (China? India?) that had an abnormal ratio of male/female babies. Essentially parents were aborting the females at higher rates as most parents wanted a male baby first. So allowing (or not prosecuting) abortions under the guise that it's a woman's choice was likely to have some profound and lasting effects on women's rights into the future.

    I still think that proper education and easier access to birth control could drastically reduce the need for abortions....but that's just my uninformed opinion.
    I actually don't understand the theologic objection. Accepting the Mormon belief of a pre-existent spirit, why would abortion prevent "a chance for a life at all"? Does the spirit lose its opportunity to come down to Earth? The two reasons I can think of for this life (per Mormon theology) is choice and gaining a body, neither of which an unborn fetus accomplishes.
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I can understand your point of view if you don't believe that life begins until such and such a date in the term of the pregnancy or until birth. However, I cannot understand the position if one believes that life begins at any point earlier than the from which they deem an abortion to be an acceptable form of contraception. If life begins at X period during a pregnancy but an an abortion until a point in time later than X is acceptable simply because of the emotional stress it will put on the mother, then why not allow termination of a child up until 2, 4, 6, 8 or 18?

    I get that the rub for when life begins is often, if not in almost all cases, driven by religious ideology, but at this point what else do we have to determine when life begins?
    Well, "when life begins" is a fairly vague and unimportant phrase, but putting that aside, when would you say that "life begins"? Or more relevantly, when the right of the fetus to life outweighs the right of the mother to end support of that life?
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  5. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I actually don't understand the theologic objection. Accepting the Mormon belief of a pre-existent spirit, why would abortion prevent "a chance for a life at all"? Does the spirit lose its opportunity to come down to Earth? The two reasons I can think of for this life (per Mormon theology) is choice and gaining a body, neither of which an unborn fetus accomplishes.
    I am not sure on this one. You may be right, but I just am not sure.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    Well, "when life begins" is a fairly vague and unimportant phrase, but putting that aside, when would you say that "life begins"? Or more relevantly, when the right of the fetus to life outweighs the right of the mother to end support of that life?
    I think everyone would be shocked out of their conscience if a mother chose to terminate a 6 month old because she determined that she didn't want the baggage, right? Why is that the case? From my vantage point, it is because life is sacred and shouldn't be discarded so whimsically. Society has apparently adopted the viewpoint that once a baby is born, its rights outweigh the mother's at that point in time? If life begins earlier than birth, then why is the actual birth of the baby such an important event that would determine the rights of the life of a baby? Too attempt to answer your question, I think that the rights of an unborn baby outweighs the mother's rights when life begins (which I admit to having no clue when that actually happens but firmly believe it is sometime prior to the baby actually being born).

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I think everyone would be shocked out of their conscience if a mother chose to terminate a 6 month old because she determined that she didn't want the baggage, right? Why is that the case? From my vantage point, it is because life is sacred and shouldn't be discarded so whimsically. Society has apparently adopted the viewpoint that once a baby is born, its rights outweigh the mother's at that point in time? If life begins earlier than birth, then why is the actual birth of the baby such an important event that would determine the rights of the life of a baby? Too attempt to answer your question, I think that the rights of an unborn baby outweighs the mother's rights when life begins (which I admit to having no clue when that actually happens but firmly believe it is sometime prior to the baby actually being born).
    That's quite the blanket statement, no? So if anyone convinces you that life begins with a fertilized implanted egg, then that cellular mass is more important than the mother.

    I respect the pro-life's position. But you have to consider the rights of the mother (and of course the pro-choice side has to consider the rights of the unborn).

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    That's quite the blanket statement, no? So if anyone convinces you that life begins with a fertilized implanted egg, then that cellular mass is more important than the mother.

    I respect the pro-life's position. But you have to consider the rights of the mother (and of course the pro-choice side has to consider the rights of the unborn).
    I think I have considered the rights of the mother....her rights are paramount up until the point life begins, which again I admittedly am not sure when that is but believe that it begins before birth. Do you think a mother should be able to off a 3 week old that she has just determined she doesn't want to put up with any more?

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I think I have considered the rights of the mother....her rights are paramount up until the point life begins, which again I admittedly am not sure when that is but believe that it begins before birth. Do you think a mother should be able to off a 3 week old that she has just determined she doesn't want to put up with any more?
    Um, no, and that's a completely ridiculous statement.

    I'll cut to the chase for you. No one will ever, ever, determine the exact moment when 'life' begins, to the satisfaction of both sides of the debate. So you'll have to decide whether or not to join the majority of the population, who find themselves in a grey zone because the question cannot be adequately answered. It's messy and uncomfortable in the middle, and some might scoff at those who do not adhere to rigid morals. But that is where we're at, because no one can or should say with certainty for every single case, when a mother's rights get superceded by those of her unborn child.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I think I have considered the rights of the mother....her rights are paramount up until the point life begins, which again I admittedly am not sure when that is but believe that it begins before birth. Do you think a mother should be able to off a 3 week old that she has just determined she doesn't want to put up with any more?
    I think that some of the "rights" discussion has to take into account at what point something could be done without infringing upon the other individual's rights.

    For instance - a pregnant woman cannot simply decide to no longer be pregnant and have the fetus removed - only to have it continue to grow elsewhere.

    But once a 3 week old is born and outside the womb, if the mom doesn't want that responsibility it would be feasible for the infant to go on living elsewhere.

    What is strange about this whole discussion, however, is that many states give the mother the opportunity to drop off a baby - no questions asked - within a short period of birth. But once that time has passed, the mom now has responsibility. So, to me at least, there seems to be some sort of disconnect in the thoughts behind these ideas.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Um, no, and that's a completely ridiculous statement.

    I'll cut to the chase for you. No one will ever, ever, determine the exact moment when 'life' begins, to the satisfaction of both sides of the debate. So you'll have to decide whether or not to join the majority of the population, who find themselves in a grey zone because the question cannot be adequately answered. It's messy and uncomfortable in the middle, and some might scoff at those who do not adhere to rigid morals. But that is where we're at, because no one can or should say with certainty for every single case, when a mother's rights get superceded by those of her unborn child.
    I think you and I agree in principle.....I have never claimed to know when life begins although I do firmly believe that it is sometime before birth, I don't think it is at the time of conception either. I didn't intend my statement to be ridiculous about the offing of a 3 week old baby but simply wanted to point out the complexity of the question of abortion. If a 3 week old is not an option, how about a baby that is an hour old? How about a baby an hour before being born....two weeks prior, 4, 6, 10 or 20 weeks?

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I think you and I agree in principle.....I have never claimed to know when life begins although I do firmly believe that it is sometime before birth, I don't think it is at the time of conception either. I didn't intend my statement to be ridiculous about the offing of a 3 week old baby but simply wanted to point out the complexity of the question of abortion. If a 3 week old is not an option, how about a baby that is an hour old? How about a baby an hour before being born....two weeks prior, 4, 6, 10 or 20 weeks?
    More of the ridiculous, huh?

    You've made your point, which is pretty close to mine. No one can adequately state at which point of pregnancy do we call 'life', and when (if) it's rights should be paramount to those of the mother's.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    More of the ridiculous, huh?

    You've made your point, which is pretty close to mine. No one can adequately state at which point of pregnancy do we call 'life', and when (if) it's rights should be paramount to those of the mother's.
    The law has to make a distinction when life deserves protection. It is a perhaps arbitrary determination. Life or rights deserving protection are something created or defined by people.

    Liberties are given to those who can assert them. That makes sense. Once delivered to this world, government will protect. Asking it to extend before them is a tricky proposition.
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  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I think everyone would be shocked out of their conscience if a mother chose to terminate a 6 month old because she determined that she didn't want the baggage, right? Why is that the case? From my vantage point, it is because life is sacred and shouldn't be discarded so whimsically. Society has apparently adopted the viewpoint that once a baby is born, its rights outweigh the mother's at that point in time? If life begins earlier than birth, then why is the actual birth of the baby such an important event that would determine the rights of the life of a baby? Too attempt to answer your question, I think that the rights of an unborn baby outweighs the mother's rights when life begins (which I admit to having no clue when that actually happens but firmly believe it is sometime prior to the baby actually being born).
    There are plenty of women who find the idea of the government telling a woman what to do with her own body just as or more repugnant as you find the idea of terminating a pregnancy at 6 months, which only highlights the messiness that NWC points out. Roe v Wade suggests the line should be at the point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. However, this cutoff is going to move earlier and earlier until we don't even really need a womb. And then where would you draw the line? Fertilization? Well, throw out an entire class of birth control pills, which do little to prevent the fertilization of an egg.

    It's really a mess just left alone. And we haven't even touched the messiness associated with alleged sexual assault (does a rape exception encourage false accusations? At what point does abortion become legal? Conviction?) or health jeopardization of the mother (Does this include mental health? Why not?). Again, I find abortion morally wrong in many if not most cases. But I'm not at all comfortable with the government making a blanket moral standard to apply to all cases.
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  15. #45
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I actually don't understand the theologic objection. Accepting the Mormon belief of a pre-existent spirit, why would abortion prevent "a chance for a life at all"? Does the spirit lose its opportunity to come down to Earth? The two reasons I can think of for this life (per Mormon theology) is choice and gaining a body, neither of which an unborn fetus accomplishes.
    I don't think there's any theological objection in terms of the fetus. Taking an eternal perspective the soul would be saved. The objection would be the mother committing murder
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I don't think there's any theological objection in terms of the fetus. Taking an eternal perspective the soul would be saved. The objection would be the mother committing murder
    Ok, but I was responding to your statement that you'd rather give the fetus a chance at life. That doesn't really have any meaning if you believe that God doesn't prevent the pre-existent spirit to come down in another body. I'm shooting from the hip here as I haven't thought through this much, but I would guess that that is the rationale behind murder being so serious--the premature ending of a spirit's chance at life.
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  17. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    There are plenty of women who find the idea of the government telling a woman what to do with her own body just as or more repugnant as you find the idea of terminating a pregnancy at 6 months, which only highlights the messiness that NWC points out. Roe v Wade suggests the line should be at the point where the fetus can survive outside of the womb. However, this cutoff is going to move earlier and earlier until we don't even really need a womb. And then where would you draw the line? Fertilization? Well, throw out an entire class of birth control pills, which do little to prevent the fertilization of an egg.

    It's really a mess just left alone. And we haven't even touched the messiness associated with alleged sexual assault (does a rape exception encourage false accusations? At what point does abortion become legal? Conviction?) or health jeopardization of the mother (Does this include mental health? Why not?). Again, I find abortion morally wrong in many if not most cases. But I'm not at all comfortable with the government making a blanket moral standard to apply to all cases.
    I think you misread what I wrote....I don't think there are many that would find terminating a 6 month pregnancy with terminating a six month old (already been born). That is beside the point. You act as if I haven't acknowledged the issues a woman faces. I have.

  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I think you misread what I wrote....I don't think there are many that would find terminating a 6 month pregnancy with terminating a six month old (already been born). That is beside the point. You act as if I haven't acknowledged the issues a woman faces. I have.
    I didn't say anything about a six month old baby.
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  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I think you misread what I wrote....I don't think there are many that would find terminating a 6 month pregnancy with terminating a six month old (already been born). That is beside the point. You act as if I haven't acknowledged the issues a woman faces. I have.
    You want to control what a woman does to her body using the authoritarian card, namely, you are on the side of angels. And then you wish to ascribe human rights to entities which have not been born. The law has not evolved in that direction. If God wants the unborn to have rights, then he will grant them rights. As long as man is deciding, we can see man and government have not recognized the rights of the unborn, or at least are not superior to the rights of women.

    We heathen are not on the side of angels, but we acknowledge what has been decided on behalf the born and living. Those have superior rights under the law of man than the unborn. There are many practical reasons for this declaration.
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  20. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    You want to control what a woman does to her body using the authoritarian card, namely, you are on the side of angels. And then you wish to ascribe human rights to entities which have not been born. The law has not evolved in that direction. If God wants the unborn to have rights, then he will grant them rights. As long as man is deciding, we can see man and government have not recognized the rights of the unborn, or at least are not superior to the rights of women.

    We heathen are not on the side of angels, but we acknowledge what has been decided on behalf the born and living. Those have superior rights under the law of man than the unborn. There are many practical reasons for this declaration.
    So tell me, why is the actual birth the moment that we should grant a baby rights? Is a baby one our before born deserving of any less rights/protection than a baby who was just born? Tell me what justification there is for that? As it is now, there is a recognition that a baby is gestation is afforded some rights as state are able to ban abortions from occurring in the 3rd trimester. So I am not sure what your last paragraph has to do with anything.

    Society (you should check your misogynistic references to "man") makes moral determinations in connection with the law all the time, in fact laws are moral determinations of what is right and what is wrong, aka moral determinations. As noted above, most states afford the unborn protections under the law after a certain point in a pregnancy. I understand both sides to the debate and understand why both sides feel so strongly about their respective positions. At one point in my younger days, I firmly believed that anyone who tolerated abortions were simply evil people. I don't believe that any longer; I think I have come to a position where I understand that they just don't see the fetus as a life and as such they don't see any moral consequences for destroying a mass of tissue. My point is simply, that it is my opinion that when life begins....whenever that is....the unborn baby should have rights that supersede the rights of the mother. I don't think it is unreasonable for society to determine the point in time that an unborn baby is afforded rights.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    So tell me, why is the actual birth the moment that we should grant a baby rights? Is a baby one our before born deserving of any less rights/protection than a baby who was just born? Tell me what justification there is for that? As it is now, there is a recognition that a baby is gestation is afforded some rights as state are able to ban abortions from occurring in the 3rd trimester. So I am not sure what your last paragraph has to do with anything.

    Society (you should check your misogynistic references to "man") makes moral determinations in connection with the law all the time, in fact laws are moral determinations of what is right and what is wrong, aka moral determinations. As noted above, most states afford the unborn protections under the law after a certain point in a pregnancy. I understand both sides to the debate and understand why both sides feel so strongly about their respective positions. At one point in my younger days, I firmly believed that anyone who tolerated abortions were simply evil people. I don't believe that any longer; I think I have come to a position where I understand that they just don't see the fetus as a life and as such they don't see any moral consequences for destroying a mass of tissue. My point is simply, that it is my opinion that when life begins....whenever that is....the unborn baby should have rights that supersede the rights of the mother. I don't think it is unreasonable for society to determine the point in time that an unborn baby is afforded rights.
    Society has already made that determination. And despite what proponents hope and pray for, it is unlikely to be rolled back. Yes, men have made the determinations, not women. If women had written the laws, I suspect there would have been much more compassion than forcing abortions into quacks with hangers in back alleys.

    Society makes practical decisions, not just decisions on right or wrong. At birth, the child is physically separated from the mother. While in utero, it is not independent at all. Once it has achieved physical independence, the unborn achieves an identity for legal purposes. That is a very practical decision. I recognize men can pontificate about what women should do, but it is very patronizing and self-serving.
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  22. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Society has already made that determination. And despite what proponents hope and pray for, it is unlikely to be rolled back. Yes, men have made the determinations, not women. If women had written the laws, I suspect there would have been much more compassion than forcing abortions into quacks with hangers in back alleys.

    Society makes practical decisions, not just decisions on right or wrong. At birth, the child is physically separated from the mother. While in utero, it is not independent at all. Once it has achieved physical independence, the unborn achieves an identity for legal purposes. That is a very practical decision. I recognize men can pontificate about what women should do, but it is very patronizing and self-serving.
    Actually society didn't....a few judges did. The judges undid what society decided. You are still acting like a baby in utero is afforded no protections....you are wrong....read this next part really slowly because it hasn't yet sunk in....most states afford a baby in utero protection in the third trimester. Why is that?

  23. #53
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    Could we reduce abortions significantly if we ended our insistence on abstinence as the best birth control when educating our youth? Also, would free birth control be cheaper than the costs of WIC, SNAP, Medicaid, and potential foster care and other costs of being a ward of the state?

    I imagine that abortions might drop considerably if we didn't insist on denying that young people have sex before marriage and gave them access to free or affordable preventive measures. However, I'm still shocked at how many of my college students get knocked up. Some get married, though my anecdotal experience is that minorities typically decide to keep their babies without wedding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    Actually society didn't....a few judges did. The judges undid what society decided. You are still acting like a baby in utero is afforded no protections....you are wrong....read this next part really slowly because it hasn't yet sunk in....most states afford a baby in utero protection in the third trimester. Why is that?
    IT is to balance the competing interests in the state legislatures to appease the religionists for whom this is a battle cry against the argument that the fetus ex utero is viable. And I am not advocating third trimester abortions, but I believe the physical separation from the mother's womb is the logical time to start affording rights. It is a brightline; whereas viability is not.

    The liberties of the mother in most instances should prevail.
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  25. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    IT is to balance the competing interests in the state legislatures to appease the religionists for whom this is a battle cry against the argument that the fetus ex utero is viable. And I am not advocating third trimester abortions, but I believe the physical separation from the mother's womb is the logical time to start affording rights. It is a brightline; whereas viability is not.

    The liberties of the mother in most instances should prevail.
    While you are not advocating third trimester abortions you apparently believe that a mother who is 40 weeks pregnant, but just hasn't delivered her baby should be able to terminate the pregnancy because the baby isn't born yet and therefore doesn't have rights? That baby, with near certainty, is viable, but you believe that the mother should not have to be inconvenienced with the baby. I am sorry but at that point there is no question that performing an abortion at that point in time should be murder.

  26. #56

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    Ah, but the devil's the details. What the hell do you mean by life? You keep saying you have no idea when it starts but it's kinda important, dontchathink? The only universally agreed standard at which a fetus' right to life equals the mother's is birth. Anything before--even third trimester fetus--relies on some extra worldly logic.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    The morning after pill isn't anywhere near 100% effective. There are also the cases where there are severe anticipated healthcare/resource needs that aren't apparent immediately, or the cases of a traumatized rape victim who isn't in the right frame of mind to think immediately to the morning after pill. Really, there are a hundred other scenarios we could point out, ranging from very selfish to not. As a fellow pragmatist, I'm not particularly interested in the government becoming involved in judging those decisions, as I'd prefer to leave them to the person and God. Also on a pragmatic level, an unwanted baby, even (especially?) in those cases of selfishness, is not going to be raised in a healthy loving home, and may end up costing a lot more in the long run.

    Leave it to the individual, educate her thoroughly on both her options and consequences and let her choose. Politicizing the issue too often puts women into the position of political pawn (see Norma McCorvey).
    This is one of the more disappointing things I've read on here in awhile. While there are privacy and constitutional arguments in favor of allowing women to choose to terminate a pregnancy, I don't think a utilitarian argument like this should ever be employed. I know a guy like you looks at yourself 15 years ago and thinks you were an ignorant rube and therefore you look for every opportunity to kick against the pricks (majority LDS thought) as a result, perhaps you're in anguish over what you were in that period of time like Julie Stouffer did on the Real Word while she was lamenting her latent and previously undiscovered personal racism a few weeks after she left BYU. Perhaps CS has lifted the scales from your eyes. But try not to let your new found extreme pragmatism lead to fascist thought.
    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

  28. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    This is one of the more disappointing things I've read on here in awhile. While there are privacy and constitutional arguments in favor of allowing women to choose to terminate a pregnancy, I don't think a utilitarian argument like this should ever be employed. I know a guy like you looks at yourself 15 years ago and thinks you were an ignorant rube and therefore you look for every opportunity to kick against the pricks (majority LDS thought) as a result, perhaps you're in anguish over what you were in that period of time like Julie Stouffer did on the Real Word while she was lamenting her latent and previously undiscovered personal racism a few weeks after she left BYU. Perhaps CS has lifted the scales from your eyes. But try not to let your new found extreme pragmatism lead to fascist thought.
    I found it!
    Yeah, this was really funny!

    I'm not getting the BYU reject connection, but I'm sure it's super funny too.

    (Also...psst...I've been pro-choice for a very long time.)
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  29. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I found it!
    Yeah, this was really funny!

    I'm not getting the BYU reject connection, but I'm sure it's super funny too.

    (Also...psst...I've been pro-choice for a very long time.)
    The Freakanomics guys have some interesting stats about this. YouTube has this section from their movie.


  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    This is one of the more disappointing things I've read on here in awhile. While there are privacy and constitutional arguments in favor of allowing women to choose to terminate a pregnancy, I don't think a utilitarian argument like this should ever be employed. I know a guy like you looks at yourself 15 years ago and thinks you were an ignorant rube and therefore you look for every opportunity to kick against the pricks (majority LDS thought) as a result, perhaps you're in anguish over what you were in that period of time like Julie Stouffer did on the Real Word while she was lamenting her latent and previously undiscovered personal racism a few weeks after she left BYU. Perhaps CS has lifted the scales from your eyes. But try not to let your new found extreme pragmatism lead to fascist thought.
    Come now, advancing an argument for purposes of discussion does not mean he is doing anything more than floating a balloon. It is true an unwanted child costs society a lot of money and often causes other problems.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

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