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Thread: On abortion

  1. #211
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Best take on abortion, IMHO.

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  2. #212
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Please tell me you also support cheap and easy access to birth control. If you don't, it is nothing more than moralizing without actually addressing the core issue.
    Yes, I fully support something that already exists.

    Let's not sugar coat what happens when a fetus is aborted. And please, no more emotional pleas for men to tell their wonderful abortion stories. It's not wonderful, and men don't have a choice in the matter, so why celebrate that?
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  3. #213
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Best take on abortion, IMHO.

    So awesome.

    And very thoughtful of you to include the Spanish subtitles so wap could understand the content. But I wonder if the jokes really translate over.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

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  4. #214

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    Does anyone really believe R v. W will be overturned? Regardless of who replaces Kennedy, I can't see it being undone. Roberts has proven he doesn't want to make waves, and he'd surely vote to keep it. I wouldn't be surprised if if Gorsuch did the same. I can't see it ever being undone.

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  5. #215
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Does anyone really believe R v. W will be overturned? Regardless of who replaces Kennedy, I can't see it being undone. Roberts has proven he doesn't want to make waves, and he'd surely vote to keep it. I wouldn't be surprised if if Gorsuch did the same. I can't see it ever being undone.
    Nope, r v w won’t be overturned and contraception won’t be banned. It’s all leftist fear mongering.

    Apparently Kavanaugh is less conservative than Gorsuch, according to some nytimes scoring mechanism. Kind f funny given the hissy fit some leftists are throwing.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Does anyone really believe R v. W will be overturned? Regardless of who replaces Kennedy, I can't see it being undone. Roberts has proven he doesn't want to make waves, and he'd surely vote to keep it. I wouldn't be surprised if if Gorsuch did the same. I can't see it ever being undone.
    Outright overturned, as in a case arises in 2019 wherein the holding is in effect "Roe v. Wade is now dead letter"? Probably not, but who knows. You just can't understate how poor a decision was Roe-- even defenders of the right to abortion will admit that it is a pathetic piece of work. (In fact, one could argue it has already been overturned; to the extent there is a constitutional right to an abortion, it largely emanates from Planned Parenthood v. Casey, not Roe.) Roe is the classic case of a panel of judges deciding a policy issue better left to the political branches, and it would not be inconsistent with the mantra conservative jurists have been touting for the last three decades to acknowledge that the judicial grant of the right to an abortion was a legal miscarriage.

    But no, public perception of the court still matters (in fact it is all the Court really has), and it doesn't serve anyone's interests to suggest the law changes when a new judge takes the bench. So the action will happen when the court grants and denies certiorari. If a case presents itself as an opportunity to cleanly overturn Roe, they'll turn it down. What they will do instead is pare it back by considering the issues on the fringe, where the right to an abortion is weighed against any number of other legitimate governmental interests, each of which they will find outweighs the right to an abortion without saying outright that the right to an abortion has no weight at all. Roe only gets overturned outright if some circuit court picks up on the cues and decides there's nothing left to Roe and creates a circuit split.
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  7. #217

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Does anyone really believe R v. W will be overturned? Regardless of who replaces Kennedy, I can't see it being undone. Roberts has proven he doesn't want to make waves, and he'd surely vote to keep it. I wouldn't be surprised if if Gorsuch did the same. I can't see it ever being undone.
    I agree, it's unlikely. But not impossible. Both the president and vice-president are on record saying they will work to get it overturned. And I haven't checked in years, but I know it was a platform policy in every RNC election cycle for decades.

    Democrats and independents who hear this continually from the republican side, for decades, will understandably take them at their word. You can't blame them for being at least concerned that it's a possibility.

  8. #218
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    So awesome.

    And very thoughtful of you to include the Spanish subtitles so wap could understand the content. But I wonder if the jokes really translate over.
    wuap too busy tilting at windmills. Just yesterday he was bitching about some stupid thing on the FB. He unfriended me over my comment. Sad!
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  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Outright overturned, as in a case arises in 2019 wherein the holding is in effect "Roe v. Wade is now dead letter"? Probably not, but who knows. You just can't understate how poor a decision was Roe-- even defenders of the right to abortion will admit that it is a pathetic piece of work. (In fact, one could argue it has already been overturned; to the extent there is a constitutional right to an abortion, it largely emanates from Planned Parenthood v. Casey, not Roe.) Roe is the classic case of a panel of judges deciding a policy issue better left to the political branches, and it would not be inconsistent with the mantra conservative jurists have been touting for the last three decades to acknowledge that the judicial grant of the right to an abortion was a legal miscarriage.

    But no, public perception of the court still matters (in fact it is all the Court really has), and it doesn't serve anyone's interests to suggest the law changes when a new judge takes the bench. So the action will happen when the court grants and denies certiorari. If a case presents itself as an opportunity to cleanly overturn Roe, they'll turn it down. What they will do instead is pare it back by considering the issues on the fringe, where the right to an abortion is weighed against any number of other legitimate governmental interests, each of which they will find outweighs the right to an abortion without saying outright that the right to an abortion has no weight at all. Roe only gets overturned outright if some circuit court picks up on the cues and decides there's nothing left to Roe and creates a circuit split.
    I am not a legal scholar but didn't R vs W come down to some implied right of privacy? If so, can we get the NSA/FBI/CIA to stop listening to all our phone calls?

    Speaking of which, Drumpf's pick for the SCOTUS sided with the spooks for spying on us (i.e., he is no fan of online privacy). Forget abortion, you dumb liberals, this is the real reason you should vote against this pick! I hope Rand votes against him.
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  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Outright overturned, as in a case arises in 2019 wherein the holding is in effect "Roe v. Wade is now dead letter"? Probably not, but who knows. You just can't understate how poor a decision was Roe-- even defenders of the right to abortion will admit that it is a pathetic piece of work. (In fact, one could argue it has already been overturned; to the extent there is a constitutional right to an abortion, it largely emanates from Planned Parenthood v. Casey, not Roe.) Roe is the classic case of a panel of judges deciding a policy issue better left to the political branches, and it would not be inconsistent with the mantra conservative jurists have been touting for the last three decades to acknowledge that the judicial grant of the right to an abortion was a legal miscarriage.

    But no, public perception of the court still matters (in fact it is all the Court really has), and it doesn't serve anyone's interests to suggest the law changes when a new judge takes the bench. So the action will happen when the court grants and denies certiorari. If a case presents itself as an opportunity to cleanly overturn Roe, they'll turn it down. What they will do instead is pare it back by considering the issues on the fringe, where the right to an abortion is weighed against any number of other legitimate governmental interests, each of which they will find outweighs the right to an abortion without saying outright that the right to an abortion has no weight at all. Roe only gets overturned outright if some circuit court picks up on the cues and decides there's nothing left to Roe and creates a circuit split.
    I agree that this is how the Supreme Court would act if it is going to "overturn" the precedent. I am doubtful that it will be overturned, given that 24% of the electorate wants an absolute right, and another 57% wants a right that is only slightly limited, the Supreme Court is not about changing simply to accommodate the 16% who want an outright complete ban. I just don't see it. And with Casey around, there is no need to deal with the tortured logic of R. v. W.
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  11. #221

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    This seems like a perfectly rational response to someone who disagrees with your stance on abortion


  12. #222
    Huge Member BigPiney's Avatar
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    I approve of the roundhouse kick as a solution to most of life's problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigPiney View Post
    I approve of the roundhouse kick as a solution to most of life's problems.
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  14. #224
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Interesting take on the Alabama abortion law...

    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  15. #225

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Interesting take on the Alabama abortion law...

    Its best to just ignore Matt Walsh...seriously
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  16. #226

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    Its best to just ignore Matt Walsh...seriously
    This. He is a piece of human garbage and he should just be ignored.

    Two things need to happen with this bold move from Alabama. Ginsburg needs to survive until 2020 and Trump needs to be out of office.

    I realize that many on here are not abortion supporters, but this law goes way too far and is heartless. To force someone who is raped (especially a child) to carry a child to term is just wrong on so many levels. It is proof positive that the republicans in Alabama don't give a shit about the bodily autonomy of women.
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  17. #227

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    What a moron. I'm sure in his head he thought this was a hot take. And so did 750 other people...

  18. #228
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    This. He is a piece of human garbage and he should just be ignored.

    Two things need to happen with this bold move from Alabama. Ginsburg needs to survive until 2020 and Trump needs to be out of office.

    I realize that many on here are not abortion supporters, but this law goes way too far and is heartless. To force someone who is raped (especially a child) to carry a child to term is just wrong on so many levels. It is proof positive that the republicans in Alabama don't give a shit about the bodily autonomy of women.


    I’m more concerned about their mental health and well being.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  19. #229

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post


    I’m more concerned about their mental health and well being.
    Good point. Republicans in Alabama don't give a shit about women's mental health, well being, or bodily autonomy.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
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  20. #230
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  21. #231
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Good point. Republicans in Alabama don't give a shit about women's mental health, well being, or bodily autonomy.
    It's an insane law, but one that has good support in Alabama. THankfully I belong to a church that has a more liberal view on abortion. Not allowing an abortion in the case of rape is just crazy.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  22. #232
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Utah AG announces he will not prosecute utah’s new anti-abortion law. Says it is likely unconstitutional so it is a waste of time.

    These dualing abortion laws (full-term OK in liberal states, severely restriction in conservative states) are dumb. I am a broken record, but politics are broken right now. God help us.
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  23. #233

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Utah AG announces he will not prosecute utah’s new anti-abortion law. Says it is likely unconstitutional so it is a waste of time.

    These dualing abortion laws (full-term OK in liberal states, severely restriction in conservative states) are dumb. I am a broken record, but politics are broken right now. God help us.
    I am at a loss to explain those states' long-term strategies. They are obviously crafting laws for a potential SC hearing, but there is no way even a conservative majority is going strike down Roe in favor of a 6-8 week ban or no rape/incest exceptions. At least I don't think so.

  24. #234

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Utah AG announces he will not prosecute utah’s new anti-abortion law. Says it is likely unconstitutional so it is a waste of time.

    These dualing abortion laws (full-term OK in liberal states, severely restriction in conservative states) are dumb. I am a broken record, but politics are broken right now. God help us.
    Amen.

    I'd like to believe it's a vocal minority, but more and more people I know seem to be too far out on the poles.

  25. #235
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I am at a loss to explain those states' long-term strategies. They are obviously crafting laws for a potential SC hearing, but there is no way even a conservative majority is going strike down Roe in favor of a 6-8 week ban or no rape/incest exceptions. At least I don't think so.
    It all seems like political grand-standing to me. Pandering to extremists. Because that’s what we do now.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  26. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It all seems like political grand-standing to me. Pandering to extremists. Because that’s what we do now.
    I don't think this is political grandstanding at this point. I think this is drawing battle lines by passing laws that are clearly unconstitutional under the current jurisprudence. It is to force the issue of getting this matter before the Supreme Court and trying to change the law based on the current composition of the court. The only exception to this might be Alabama. That law is so cruel and out there that it might very well be political grandstanding.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
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  27. #237

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    Amen.

    I'd like to believe it's a vocal minority, but more and more people I know seem to be too far out on the poles.
    It likely is a minority, but that's all it takes in many cases. Interesting research has been done on how activism with a minority opinion can flip the majority. Models have been anywhere from 10% to 25% being the necessary threshold. Especially if the activists are unwavering. Some dispute to where the threshold is.

    Decades of work in sociology, physics, and other disciplines have supported this idea. Small groups of people can indeed flip firmly established social conventions, as long as they reach a certain critical mass. When that happens, what was once acceptable can quickly become unacceptable, and vice versa.
    "What I think is happening at the threshold is that there’s a pretty high probability that a noncommitted actor”—a person who can be swayed in any direction—“will encounter a majority of committed minority actors, and flip to join them,” says Pamela Oliver, a sociologist at the University of Wisconsin at Madison. “There is therefore a good probability that enough non-committed actors will all flip at the same time that the whole system will flip."
    This isn’t necessarily an uplifting message, Centola stresses. “It’s really important to be aware of how easily populations can be co-opted by people with an agenda,” he says.
    Also this article.

  28. #238

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It all seems like political grand-standing to me. Pandering to extremists. Because that’s what we do now.
    An appeal to rational, civil discourse

    In a week’s worth of conversations in London and Oxford, Bret and I heard people from both left and right, upper class and working class, talk about their concerns regarding the watchful eyes of the state, and the de facto orthodoxy that is creeping in. So many people have faith that the human spirit can rise to the set of modern predicaments in which we find ourselves, but believe—indeed, know in their heart of hearts—that we need oversight and regulation of processes too large to contain within small political structures and policy fixes, but that there is an obvious tension between this and a need for privacy, time and space away from state control. How, at this late date, can we free ourselves from the corporate algorithms that capture our attention and resources, from the legal and ubiquitous mood-disrupters and exogenous hormones that so many people find themselves on, from the ever narrowing social norms of what constitutes acceptable discourse? In a sense, we have agreed to our own imprisonment.

  29. #239
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
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    I'm pretty pro-life. I fully support rape, incest, and risk to life (mom or baby exceptions), and I have no problem with the mom making that call up to the point of viability.

    These new bills going through the states' legislatures are in direct response to the Democrats' overreaches earlier in the year in NY and VA. If they could have left well enough alone, then Alabama, Georgia, and Ohio wouldn't be acting like idiots.
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  30. #240

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    I'm pretty pro-life. I fully support rape, incest, and risk to life (mom or baby exceptions), and I have no problem with the mom making that call up to the point of viability.

    These new bills going through the states' legislatures are in direct response to the Democrats' overreaches earlier in the year in NY and VA. If they could have left well enough alone, then Alabama, Georgia, and Ohio wouldn't be acting like idiots.
    Complete BS. A plan to strike down Roe v Wade has been on the official republican platform for decades. Maaaaybe the lack of a rape/incest provision in Alabama was a response to democrats in other states. But the other states are doing what republican voters want them to do. This is who they are, frankly.

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