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Thread: On abortion

  1. #241
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Complete BS. A plan to strike down Roe v Wade has been on the official republican platform for decades. Maaaaybe the lack of a rape/incest provision in Alabama was a response to democrats in other states. But the other states are doing what republican voters want them to do. This is who they are, frankly.
    Why now? Why not, say, in the last several decades?
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  2. #242

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    Why now? Why not, say, in the last several decades?
    There haven't been anti-abortion bills passed in states that have been overruled in courts? Didn't at least one go up to the supreme court after Roe?

    I guess if your argument is that there have always been anti-abortion laws passed, but not as crazy as this crop, I can't argue against that. But still, in the past there have been laws banning second-trimester abortions, requirements to disseminate false health info to women, etc. There's been a steady history of anti-abortion sentiment.

  3. #243

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    I'm pretty pro-life. I fully support rape, incest, and risk to life (mom or baby exceptions), and I have no problem with the mom making that call up to the point of viability.

    These new bills going through the states' legislatures are in direct response to the Democrats' overreaches earlier in the year in NY and VA. If they could have left well enough alone, then Alabama, Georgia, and Ohio wouldn't be acting like idiots.
    Oh brother. It isn't reactionary to those laws at all. It is a reaction to Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court. You have another damn near guaranteed vote to finding an abortion law constitutional. A wild card in Kennedy is off the court and they are going to strike now. The only possible change to the supreme court in the near future is Ginsburg if she dies. She also might hold on until Trump is out so that vote may not change anyway.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
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  4. #244

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    Why now? Why not, say, in the last several decades?
    The composition of the court is the best it has been in decades for a challenge to Roe v. Wade and Casey.
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...-legislatures/

    “What I’m trying to do here is get this case in front of the Supreme Court so Roe v. Wade can be overturned,” Republican Alabama state Rep. Terri Collins, who sponsored the abortion ban legislation, said in an interview with The Washington Post.
    Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 05-16-2019 at 04:22 PM.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  5. #245
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    I think it's a little of both.

    I think there are some who are super excited about the Trump supreme court appointees and can't wait to challenge Roe V Wade. Trump himself, as I recall, has talked about the supreme court changing Roe V Wade.

    So I think that the laws themselves are a response to the new make up of the court and are intended to challenge Roe V Wade. But I also think that some states have over-reacted to the laws going the other direction allowing fetuses to be aborted the day they are born. Almost one-upping them, to a degree.

    What would be interesting is if the Supremes were to say "you're all right - this is a state issue, and ya'll can do what you want". Such extreme laws from one state to the next, no one is happy.

    What I hope happens is that some reasoning takes place that allows for abortion in certain circumstances (circumstances referring to timing, situation, etc.), but not on demand at 40 weeks. Things have gone off the rails both directions and I'm hoping the supreme court and get us to a better place for both sides.

  6. #246
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Oh brother. It isn't reactionary to those laws at all. It is a reaction to Kavanaugh on the Supreme Court. You have another damn near guaranteed vote to finding an abortion law constitutional. A wild card in Kennedy is off the court and they are going to strike now. The only possible change to the supreme court in the near future is Ginsburg if she dies. She also might hold on until Trump is out so that vote may not change anyway.
    Timeline is this: Trump elected; Justice Kennedy retires; Kavanagh is nominated; Left reacts with batshit crazy legislation in NY and VA; batshit crazy Democrats advocate genocide on national TV/radio; batshit crazy Republicans pass zero-exception anti-abortion bills.

    I am of the opinion that the political will and desire by the Repbulicans comes from the indifference to human life and genocide advocated by the Dems after Kennedy's retirement. If the Dems could have held off on advocating infanticide, you get your standard "parents must provide permission" statutes in the states (or something similar).
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

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  7. #247

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Utah AG announces he will not prosecute utah’s new anti-abortion law. Says it is likely unconstitutional so it is a waste of time.

    These dualing abortion laws (full-term OK in liberal states, severely restriction in conservative states) are dumb. I am a broken record, but politics are broken right now. God help us.
    This is similar to how we let 2nd amendment debates be framed by arguments between proponents of gun confiscation and those who think everyone should be able to own a tank. 70% of americans can agree on major points in these debates. It is so frustrating that we let the radical fringes guide the conversation.

  8. #248

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    One thing that may help with civil discourse is not using terms like Democrats are advocating for genocide.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  9. #249

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    Timeline is this: Trump elected; Justice Kennedy retires; Kavanagh is nominated; Left reacts with batshit crazy legislation in NY and VA; batshit crazy Democrats advocate genocide on national TV/radio; batshit crazy Republicans pass zero-exception anti-abortion bills.

    I am of the opinion that the political will and desire by the Repbulicans comes from the indifference to human life and genocide advocated by the Dems after Kennedy's retirement. If the Dems could have held off on advocating infanticide, you get your standard "parents must provide permission" statutes in the states (or something similar).
    The only batshit crazy law abortion law is the current Alabama ones. I don't love the NY or VA laws, but they aren't batshit crazy.

    If you really want to talk about indifference to human life, the law that demonstrates the must indifference to human life is the Alabama one.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  10. #250
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    The only batshit crazy law abortion law is the current Alabama ones. I don't love the NY or VA laws, but they aren't batshit crazy.

    If you really want to talk about indifference to human life, the law that demonstrates the must indifference to human life is the Alabama one.
    :eyeroll:

    If a doctor can deliver a fullterm baby and either intentionally end its life or allow the baby to die based on the standardless decision of the mother (which is what I understand the NY law to have done; and the proposed VA law would have allowed), I'm going to call that not only batshit crazy, but also homicidal.

    I disagree with the AL law. But I don't think a person can argue with a straight face and a fully functioning brain that forcing a woman to carry a child (even under horrific circumstances) is less humane than slaughtering that child on its way out of the birth canal (which is my real beef with the NY law). Sorry, chief.
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

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  11. #251

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    :eyeroll:

    If a doctor can deliver a fullterm baby and either intentionally end its life or allow the baby to die based on the standardless decision of the mother (which is what I understand the NY law to have done; and the proposed VA law would have allowed), I'm going to call that not only batshit crazy, but also homicidal.

    I disagree with the AL law. But I don't think a person can argue with a straight face and a fully functioning brain that forcing a woman to carry a child (even under horrific circumstances) is less humane than slaughtering that child on its way out of the birth canal (which is my real beef with the NY law). Sorry, chief.
    Here's a different reading of the NY law:

    As discussed above, third-trimester abortions after the 24th week of pregnancy are only permitted if it's necessary to protect the mother's life or health or there's an "absence of fetal viability."

    Nationwide, such late-term abortions are rare: About 1.3 percent of all abortions came after the 21st week of pregnancy, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention....

    The new state law leaves it up to the mother's health-care provider to "use their reasonable and good faith professional judgment based on the facts of the patient's case."

    Opponents of the new law, like Dolan, say the health exception would allow late-term abortions for almost any reason.

    But the health exception isn't new: It's required by Roe v. Wade, even when a woman is late in her term. Still, many abortion providers in New York were hesitant to use the exception since prior state law only included an exception for the mother's life.
    https://www.democratandchronicle.com...do/2743142002/

    I am missing the provision of 'slaughtering that child on its way out of the birth canal'...

  12. #252

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    :eyeroll:

    If a doctor can deliver a fullterm baby and either intentionally end its life or allow the baby to die based on the standardless decision of the mother (which is what I understand the NY law to have done; and the proposed VA law would have allowed), I'm going to call that not only batshit crazy, but also homicidal.

    I disagree with the AL law. But I don't think a person can argue with a straight face and a fully functioning brain that forcing a woman to carry a child (even under horrific circumstances) is less humane than slaughtering that child on its way out of the birth canal (which is my real beef with the NY law). Sorry, chief.
    You misunderstand the NY law.
    https://legislation.nysenate.gov/pdf/bills/2019/S240
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  13. #253

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Here's a different reading of the NY law:



    https://www.democratandchronicle.com...do/2743142002/

    I am missing the provision of 'slaughtering that child on its way out of the birth canal'...
    I'd also be interested in where that provision exists as argued by GM.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  14. #254

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    if true evil exists in this world, it exists in cases of discretionary abortion for convenience and unwanted pregnancy. sickening.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  15. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    if true evil exists in this world, it exists in cases of discretionary abortion for convenience and unwanted pregnancy. sickening.
    Not sure if this is typical sarcastic OG or not...

  16. #256
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Here's a different reading of the NY law:

    https://www.democratandchronicle.com...do/2743142002/

    I am missing the provision of 'slaughtering that child on its way out of the birth canal'...
    Does that link really refute the claims being made? If you read to the end, it says that "health of the mother" is an acceptable reason all the way up to birth, but I seem to recall that the "mental well-being" of the mother was one of the claimed exceptions, which of course could mean just about anything. Am I missing something?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  17. #257

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    if true evil exists in this world, it exists in cases of discretionary abortion for convenience and unwanted pregnancy. sickening.
    I understand your sentiment but it’s a bit much.

  18. #258

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Does that link really refute the claims being made? If you read to the end, it says that "health of the mother" is an acceptable reason all the way up to birth, but I seem to recall that the "mental well-being" of the mother was one of the claimed exceptions, which of course could mean just about anything. Am I missing something?
    I'm not sure about the specifics. I was mostly reacting against GM's inflammatory language. No one is going to 'slaughter' a baby right before birth because of mental health issues.

  19. #259

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Does that link really refute the claims being made? If you read to the end, it says that "health of the mother" is an acceptable reason all the way up to birth, but I seem to recall that the "mental well-being" of the mother was one of the claimed exceptions, which of course could mean just about anything. Am I missing something?
    How about we read the text of the law. Yes, health of the mother could be interpreted broadly, but it is still a limitation and it is inconsistent with the GM's over the top claims and inconsistent with any claims that there is abortion without limitation to term. Mental well being is not an exception it is "life or health."

    2599-aa. Abortion. 1. A health care practitioner licensed, certified, or authorized under title eight of the education law, acting within his or her lawful scope of practice, may perform an abortion when, according to the practitioner's reasonable and good faith professional judgment based on the facts of the patient's case: the patient is within twenty-four weeks from the commencement of pregnancy, or there is an absence of fetal viability, or the abortion is necessary to protect the patient's life or health.
    Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 05-17-2019 at 11:42 AM.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  20. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I'm not sure about the specifics. I was mostly reacting against GM's inflammatory language. No one is going to 'slaughter' a baby right before birth because of mental health issues.
    For as much as the Dude complains about hyperbole and lack of civility, I am surprised he just let that one slide.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  21. #261
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    How about we read the text of the law. Yes, health of the mother could be interpreted broadly, but it is still a limitation and it is inconsistent with the GM's over the top claims and inconsistent with any claims that there is abortion without limitation to term. Mental well being is not an exception it is "life or health."
    Funk, you should read the article again.

    Another Supreme Court decision, Doe v. Bolton, says "health" refers to "all factors — physical, emotional, psychological, familial, and the woman's age — relevant to the well-being of the patient" when it comes to an abortion.
    This has been confirmed by advocates of the new law.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  22. #262
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    For as much as the Dude complains about hyperbole and lack of civility, I am surprised he just let that one slide.
    Ha. So now I am a hypocrite if I don't respond to each and every post? That's funny.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  23. #263
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Missouri just banned abortions after 8 weeks.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  24. #264

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Funk, you should read the article again.



    This has been confirmed by advocates of the new law.
    It is a factor that is considered in assessing "health." It is just a factor that the medical provider uses in making his or her assessment of the mother's health. What is inaccurate to say is that it is abortion on demand throughout pregnancy. Life and health are the factors that much be assessed by the medical provider and that providers judgment must come to a determination that life or health is in danger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Ha. So now I am a hypocrite if I don't respond to each and every post? That's funny.
    I didn't call you a hypocrite, I said I was surprised you let such inflammatory and inaccurate language in this discussion slide.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  25. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Not sure if this is typical sarcastic OG or not...
    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    I understand your sentiment but it’s a bit much.
    sincere take bros
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  26. #266

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    sincere take bros
    I think I get where you're coming from, but how many abortions are not 'discretionary', 'convenience', or for 'unwanted pregnancy'? You might want hone down your argument to something more specific.

  27. #267
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I think I get where you're coming from, but how many abortions are not 'discretionary', 'convenience', or for 'unwanted pregnancy'? You might want hone down your argument to something more specific.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  28. #268

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    You're making my point for me (I think). I assumed that OG is talking against abortion as a primary birth control strategy, or something like that. Maybe he isn't.

    Just FTR, I believe a lot of those non-rape/incest reasons are completely valid for the women who make them.

  29. #269

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    You're making my point for me (I think). I assumed that OG is talking against abortion as a primary birth control strategy, or something like that. Maybe he isn't.

    Just FTR, I believe a lot of those non-rape/incest reasons are completely valid for the women who make them.
    i’m saying that abortion for any of the reasons on lines 1-6 of that chart are incomprehensibly evil
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  30. #270

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    i’m saying that abortion for any of the reasons on lines 1-6 of that chart are incomprehensibly evil
    Got it.

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