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Thread: On abortion

  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I have no idea what you're talking about.
    My problem with abortion opponents is that they're telling a woman what she can do with her own body. Now you're saying I should be okay with a man telling her what to do with her own body.
    Hmm
    I have no idea what you are talking about. When did I say that a man should be able to tell the woman carrying his baby what she can do with her own body?

  2. #182

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    "Baby".
    I give up.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
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  3. #183

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    "Baby".
    I give up.
    Feel free to answer the question.....when did I say the father of [insert what ever term for the mass you choose] should be able to tell the mother what she can or can't do with her body?

  4. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    Feel free to answer the question.....when did I say the father of [insert what ever term for the mass you choose] should be able to tell the mother what she can or can't do with her body?
    When you said that a man should be able to force a woman to have her cervix dilated and the contents expelled.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
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  5. #185
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    When you said that a man should be able to force a woman to have her cervix dilated and the contents expelled.
    no one said that

    If a mother can abort a fetus then a man should have a similar right in that he can disavow his parental rights/responsibilities in regards to the fetus/baby.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  6. #186
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I'm not criticizing cardiacs response. It's what the law is based on right now. I just think that in ten years, we'll have to rethink it.

    It does offer a solution for that scenario (sort of...Who pays? ) but if we're claiming that any entity that is "viable" has a significant right to life, then what do we do with unused embryos from ivf, for example? Do we allow embryonic stem cell research....ever? Do we allow the use of birth control methods that don't prevent fertilization? Seems like a pretty wanton destruction of human life...
    My understanding is that embryonic stem cell research is currently legal, and that Bush just put a moratorium on federal funding (which I would assume Obama has lifted). Or is that just stem cell research in general?
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  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    "Baby".
    I give up.
    As well you should. People have been calling the entity occupying its mother's uterus a "baby" or a "child" for hundreds of years now.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  8. #188

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    When you said that a man should be able to force a woman to have her cervix dilated and the contents expelled.
    Feel free to quote where I have suggested that I believe a man should be able to force a woman to have her cervix dilated and the contents expelled.

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Maybe we can even plug them in somewhere and use them to generate power.
    Looks like somebody has already cashed in on this idea.

    And only a few weeks ago we learned from The B.C. Catholic newspaper of the Archdiocese of Vancouver that children aborted in British Columbia were being incinerated as fuel in Oregon.
    http://thefederalist.com/2014/05/16/...rtion-problem/
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  10. #190
    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    I am not advocating the position. However, I, and I am not sure, but I think Moliere would agree, that if you get to a point where an abortion is justifiable there is no justification for allowing a husband to disavow his parental obligations if he chooses to do so.
    ok so then you don't "agree with moliere completely." Which is why I was confused that you would say that you did.
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  11. #191
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    ok so then you don't "agree with moliere completely." Which is why I was confused that you would say that you did.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  12. #192
    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I don't agree with you, either!
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  13. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    As well you should. People have been calling the entity occupying its mother's uterus a "baby" or a "child" for hundreds of years now.
    Yes, except for medical professionals and legal minds who want have an intelligent discussion about the legality of abortion. Apologies.

    Iman keeps asking for an important distinction between a baby and a fetus. I've told him multiple times that birth is the most important, significant, and hazardous single physiologic step outside of perhaps meiosis in the individual's life. Yet he keeps ignoring it, both in his terminology and in asking me repeatedly to provide same thing, meanwhile giving me a shrug off the shoulders when i ask for some better event to mark the beginning of rights. So... I give up.

    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    Feel free to quote where I have suggested that I believe a man should be able to force a woman to have her cervix dilated and the contents expelled.
    Ok...sorry, I misread you.
    This makes no more sense, but for completely different reasons. I'm off to father's and son's. I'll catch up tomorrow.
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  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    Yes, except for medical professionals and legal minds who want have an intelligent discussion about the legality of abortion. Apologies.
    Now that's a telling response.
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  15. #195
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    I don't agree with you, either!
    I know and that's great
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  16. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    Yes, except for medical professionals and legal minds who want have an intelligent discussion about the legality of abortion. Apologies.

    Iman keeps asking for an important distinction between a baby and a fetus. I've told him multiple times that birth is the most important, significant, and hazardous single physiologic step outside of perhaps meiosis in the individual's life. Yet he keeps ignoring it, both in his terminology and in asking me repeatedly to provide same thing, meanwhile giving me a shrug off the shoulders when i ask for some better event to mark the beginning of rights. So... I give up.



    Ok...sorry, I misread you.
    This makes no more sense, but for completely different reasons. I'm off to father's and son's. I'll catch up tomorrow.
    I know that you have said that there are important physiological differences....you have stated that a number of times, but never have you actually attempted to state what those differences are and more importantly, why those differences create a need to treat a baby post birth different that a "baby" in utero. I am happy to listen but so far your attempts to point out the meaningful differences have been less than stellar.

    More importantly enjoy your son and father's and sons. Ours is in a couple of week and I dread having to go.

  17. #197

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    So I am wondering....do you think a man ought to be able to disavow his paternal rights as a moral position in and of itself or are you stating that if abortion is a woman's choice and that what society has determined is best, then a man ought to be allowed the same freedom to disavow his paternal rights prior to the baby being born?

  18. #198
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by imanihonjin View Post
    So I am wondering....do you think a man ought to be able to disavow his paternal rights as a moral position in and of itself or are you stating that if abortion is a woman's choice and that what society has determined is best, then a man ought to be allowed the same freedom to disavow his paternal rights prior to the baby being born?
    I'm saying the bolded part.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  19. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I'm saying the bolded part.
    not just rights but responsibilities. your point was a financial disavowal, not one of relinquishing "rights."
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  20. #200

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    not just rights but responsibilities. your point was a financial disavowal, not one of relinquishing "rights."
    Yep you are correct and Moliere and I are in agreement.

  21. #201
    Senior Member Blueintheface's Avatar
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    I'm more confused than ever (not about my stand on abortion but about this argument).
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  22. #202
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    This is pretty sick shit.

    Men should worry about the future of Roe v. Wade, too

    What we too seldom hear is that men should also tell their abortion stories. We need to hear from the man who was able to stay in college, the man who did not become a single parent to two daughters after his wife died during a complicated pregnancy, the man whose uninterrupted research while a graduate student yielded a lifesaving cancer treatment and the man whose family did not become homeless during a stretch of unemployment — all because their partners had access to safe and legal abortion. Mathematically speaking, millions of men have such stories. The one-in-four women who have had an abortion did not get pregnant on their own.

    These stories are powerful. Yet we rarely hear these perspectives, and more rarely still do we hear calls for men to describe how abortion has affected them personally. This needs to change.
    What the hell?!?!?

    Aside from losing a spouse, she boils this down to economics and convenience. I have no doubt that the vast majority of abortions happen due to economic and convenience. "Thank goodness she killed that baby so that you could finish graduate school unburdened by parental responsibilities." Yes, let's rejoice and tell that powerful story.

    And why should men get all ecstatic about a decision over which they have no control? Not saying they should. Just saying you might as well rejoice that you didn't get hit by a meteor this morning.

    Bunch of sick assholes.

    This is pretty simple. If you don't want a baby, don't dip your stick without protection. Or get fixed.
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  23. #203
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    This is pretty sick shit.

    Men should worry about the future of Roe v. Wade, too



    What the hell?!?!?

    Aside from losing a spouse, she boils this down to economics and convenience. I have no doubt that the vast majority of abortions happen due to economic and convenience. "Thank goodness she killed that baby so that you could finish graduate school unburdened by parental responsibilities." Yes, let's rejoice and tell that powerful story.

    And why should men get all ecstatic about a decision over which they have no control? Not saying they should. Just saying you might as well rejoice that you didn't get hit by a meteor this morning.

    Bunch of sick assholes.

    This is pretty simple. If you don't want a baby, don't dip your stick without protection. Or get fixed.
    ^^^This.

    The left used to say "safe, legal, and rare" about abortions, but then the rare part implied there was something untoward about them. Now they have to embrace them as good and wonderful as they try to rationalize / whitewash away the awfulness of what they are actually doing.

    Here's a very recent example of this Orwellian celebration of abortion:



    Absolutely disgusting.

  24. #204

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    ^^^This.

    The left used to say "safe, legal, and rare" about abortions, but then the rare part implied there was something untoward about them. Now they have to embrace them as good and wonderful as they try to rationalize / whitewash away the awfulness of what they are actually doing.

    Here's a very recent example of this Orwellian celebration of abortion:



    Absolutely disgusting.
    darn that monolithic left. too bad only trump voters are capable of nuance.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  25. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    This is pretty sick shit.

    Men should worry about the future of Roe v. Wade, too



    What the hell?!?!?

    Aside from losing a spouse, she boils this down to economics and convenience. I have no doubt that the vast majority of abortions happen due to economic and convenience. "Thank goodness she killed that baby so that you could finish graduate school unburdened by parental responsibilities." Yes, let's rejoice and tell that powerful story.

    And why should men get all ecstatic about a decision over which they have no control? Not saying they should. Just saying you might as well rejoice that you didn't get hit by a meteor this morning.

    Bunch of sick assholes.

    This is pretty simple. If you don't want a baby, don't dip your stick without protection. Or get fixed.
    Please tell me you also support cheap and easy access to birth control. If you don't, it is nothing more than moralizing without actually addressing the core issue.

    If you want less abortions, follow Colorado's route and offer free IUDs.
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  26. #206
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    darn that monolithic left. too bad only trump voters are capable of nuance.
    There are some pro-life democrats, but the party is certainly becoming more hostile to them and more dogmatic on this issue: DNC chair Tom Perez said all Democratic candidates must support a woman’s right to choose.

  27. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    There are some pro-life democrats, but the party is certainly becoming more dogmatic on this issue: DNC chair Tom Perez said all Democratic candidates must support a woman’s right to choose.
    It seems like you aren't allowing for a range of opinions among those that support abortion. For example, I support abortion but want policies in place to minimize the number of abortions that occur because of an unwanted pregnancy.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
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  28. #208
    Semper infra dignitatem PaloAltoCougar's Avatar
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    Man, I hate the pro-life/pro-choice labeling that's used with this issue. I'm both, btw.

  29. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    Man, I hate the pro-life/pro-choice labeling that's used with this issue. I'm both, btw.
    I'm right there with you. I hate that labeling. I also hated the support traditional marriage/support marriage equality labels.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  30. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    Man, I hate the pro-life/pro-choice labeling that's used with this issue. I'm both, btw.
    leftist scum!
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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