Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 220

Thread: On abortion

  1. #1
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    God's Country!
    Posts
    9,681

    Default On abortion

    Here is an article written by the woman who filmed her own abortion:

    http://www.cosmopolitan.com/advice/h...ed-my-abortion


    Now I am decidedly in the "Pro-Choice" camp basically out of pragmatism and to maximize liberty. Saying that, I find abortion motivated purely by convenience to be a total abomination and I worry that any society who so nonchalantly accepts such actions as not having values that I think will ensure its long term success. While I don't want government to enforce rules against such incredible selfishness, I would feel better if it were at least looked down upon. Now in full disclosure I am a Conservative Mormon who struggled with infertility for the first 6 years of my marriage, so take that for what it is worth. In any case I found the following paragraph from her article really disheartening:


    "I found out I was pregnant in November. I had been working at the clinic for about a year. It was my first pregnancy, and, full disclosure, I hadn't been using any kind of birth control, which is crazy, I know. I’m a sex educator, and I love talking about birth control. Before this experience, hormonal birth control scared me because of complications I’d heard about from friends — gaining weight, depression, etc. So I tracked my ovulation cycle, and I didn’t have any long-term partners. I thought I was OK. But, you know, things happen. I wound up pregnant."


    Essentially it appears to me that her concern about what birth control might do to her bothered her enough that she took no precaution because....she has a backstop of abortion. I remember the days when a left leaning publication made an effort to emphasize that abortion was not about convenience in the examples it would provide. Sometimes you are reminded how much you really are "out of touch."
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
    -DOCTOR Wuap

  2. #2
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    Here is an article written by the woman who filmed her own abortion:

    http://www.cosmopolitan.com/advice/h...ed-my-abortion


    Now I am decidedly in the "Pro-Choice" camp basically out of pragmatism and to maximize liberty. Saying that, I find abortion motivated purely by convenience to be a total abomination and I worry that any society who so nonchalantly accepts such actions as not having values that I think will ensure its long term success. While I don't want government to enforce rules against such incredible selfishness, I would feel better if it were at least looked down upon. Now in full disclosure I am a Conservative Mormon who struggled with infertility for the first 6 years of my marriage, so take that for what it is worth. In any case I found the following paragraph from her article really disheartening:


    "I found out I was pregnant in November. I had been working at the clinic for about a year. It was my first pregnancy, and, full disclosure, I hadn't been using any kind of birth control, which is crazy, I know. I’m a sex educator, and I love talking about birth control. Before this experience, hormonal birth control scared me because of complications I’d heard about from friends — gaining weight, depression, etc. So I tracked my ovulation cycle, and I didn’t have any long-term partners. I thought I was OK. But, you know, things happen. I wound up pregnant."


    Essentially it appears to me that her concern about what birth control might do to her bothered her enough that she took no precaution because....she has a backstop of abortion. I remember the days when a left leaning publication made an effort to emphasize that abortion was not about convenience in the examples it would provide. Sometimes you are reminded how much you really are "out of touch."
    What I don't understand is why abortion is necessary at all. Haven't people heard of the morning after pill? It seems silly that abortions are desired or necessary at all. People are really very unwise and selfish.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  3. #3

    Default

    The morning after pill isn't anywhere near 100% effective. There are also the cases where there are severe anticipated healthcare/resource needs that aren't apparent immediately, or the cases of a traumatized rape victim who isn't in the right frame of mind to think immediately to the morning after pill. Really, there are a hundred other scenarios we could point out, ranging from very selfish to not. As a fellow pragmatist, I'm not particularly interested in the government becoming involved in judging those decisions, as I'd prefer to leave them to the person and God. Also on a pragmatic level, an unwanted baby, even (especially?) in those cases of selfishness, is not going to be raised in a healthy loving home, and may end up costing a lot more in the long run.

    Leave it to the individual, educate her thoroughly on both her options and consequences and let her choose. Politicizing the issue too often puts women into the position of political pawn (see Norma McCorvey).
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  4. #4
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    The morning after pill isn't anywhere near 100% effective. There are also the cases where there are severe anticipated healthcare/resource needs that aren't apparent immediately, or the cases of a traumatized rape victim who isn't in the right frame of mind to think immediately to the morning after pill. Really, there are a hundred other scenarios we could point out, ranging from very selfish to not. As a fellow pragmatist, I'm not particularly interested in the government becoming involved in judging those decisions, as I'd prefer to leave them to the person and God. Also on a pragmatic level, an unwanted baby, even (especially?) in those cases of selfishness, is not going to be raised in a healthy loving home, and may end up costing a lot more in the long run.

    Leave it to the individual, educate her thoroughly on both her options and consequences and let her choose. Politicizing the issue too often puts women into the position of political pawn (see Norma McCorvey).
    I agree with you and with Goat in terms of the libertarian concerns. I haven't read the research on the effectiveness of the morning after pill. It seems if it doesn't eliminate the need it should drastically reduce the need.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  5. #5

    Default

    How can you avoid guilt in that situation. Same as people advocating for Same Gender marriage. Would people be happier with a so called marriage license. If you read the words of Alma and Samuel the Lamanite will know it is impossible to be happy when you make wrong choices so guilt will be there because you chose to do iniquity no way around it.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    What I don't understand is why abortion is necessary at all. Haven't people heard of the morning after pill? It seems silly that abortions are desired or necessary at all. People are really very unwise and selfish.
    Why is it selfish a month or two after but not the morning after?

  7. #7
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Non Sequitur View Post
    Why is it selfish a month or two after but not the morning after?
    Maybe selfish is the wrong word but stupid. If you want to be sexually active but you don't use birth control? Use birth control and follow up with the morning after pill.

    Abortion should be rare with today's medical options for birth control.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  8. #8

    Default

    There are plenty of women who can't take birth control pills.

    I'm not disagreeing with you that there is some option for most, but you're highlighting one of the problems with this issue--men making reproductive decisions for women. We don't come from a place of experience, which is part of reason we tend much more strongly pro life.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  9. #9
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    There are plenty of women who can't take birth control pills.

    I'm not disagreeing with you that there is some option for most, but you're highlighting one of the problems with this issue--men making reproductive decisions for women. We don't come from a place of experience, which is part of reason we tend much more strongly pro life.
    I don't want to make decisions for women. Men should use protection, and women should plan. What is unreasonable about that? If women want to use abortion as their birth control that is their choice even though it seems unwise.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    I don't want to make decisions for women. Men should use protection, and women should plan. What is unreasonable about that? If women want to use abortion as their birth control that is their choice even though it seems unwise.
    We both know that men rarely use protection, particularly in an established relationship. And thus the onus falls on the woman, either to make the man wear a condom or take extra hormones in her body, that come with not insignificant risks. I'm not accusing you of being sexist, just of being naturally and understandably ignorant (like about any man outside of the medical prison) due to inexperience. There's nothing wrong with that, but we shouldn't be making blanket statements about how easy it is to take birth control pills or the morning after pill (which, by the way, makes many women violently ill).

    In the end, regardless of whether abortion is right or wrong, i just don't think it does anyone any good to force a woman who doesn't want to be a mother to be one.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  11. #11
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    The Republic of Tejas
    Posts
    20,402

    Default

    Even in my moments of unbelief I'm still pro-life. I like the stance the church has taken on the matter, which isn't totally pro-life, but allows for some abortion in instances where it obviously makes sense (rape, incest, health of mother, etc.). I can see if being necessary in other cases, but I think it should be rare, or rarer than rare. Of course, my stance would also require easy access to birth control (of all kinds) as well as a lot of public education about safe sex (including abstinence).

    There are so many people in the world that can't have children that want to have them. Adoption is a great alternative and one that prevents mothers who don't want to be mothers from having their only option being abortion.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Even in my moments of unbelief I'm still pro-life. I like the stance the church has taken on the matter, which isn't totally pro-life, but allows for some abortion in instances where it obviously makes sense (rape, incest, health of mother, etc.). I can see if being necessary in other cases, but I think it should be rare, or rarer than rare. Of course, my stance would also require easy access to birth control (of all kinds) as well as a lot of public education about safe sex (including abstinence).

    There are so many people in the world that can't have children that want to have them. Adoption is a great alternative and one that prevents mothers who don't want to be mothers from having their only option being abortion.
    I have no problem with the church taking a strong moral position on this (and really, it's not a strictly pro-life one). I think abortion in most cases is wrong. My position is completely pragmatic on this.

    And yes, for white babies of healthy middle to upper class mothers, adoption is a great alternative.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  13. #13
    Senior Member byu71's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    22,126

    Default

    I love the society we currently live in.

    Men and women are responsible for the world heating up, glaciers melting and the oceans rising.

    Men and women are not responsible for creating a living enitity and then wiping it out.

    Men and women are responsible to make sure some toad in Nevada doesn't die out.

  14. #14
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    We both know that men rarely use protection, particularly in an established relationship. And thus the onus falls on the woman, either to make the man wear a condom or take extra hormones in her body, that come with not insignificant risks. I'm not accusing you of being sexist, just of being naturally and understandably ignorant (like about any man outside of the medical prison) due to inexperience. There's nothing wrong with that, but we shouldn't be making blanket statements about how easy it is to take birth control pills or the morning after pill (which, by the way, makes many women violently ill).

    In the end, regardless of whether abortion is right or wrong, i just don't think it does anyone any good to force a woman who doesn't want to be a mother to be one
    .
    I agree with the bolded part.

    However, I can read the statistics on different methods of birth control, and know the percentages for whom the routine methods of birth control work effectively. It is not unreasonable for society to expect the sexes to act responsibly in regards to sexual activity by using the most cost effective and efficacious methods while still retaining the ability to procreate later.
    Last edited by Topper; 05-13-2014 at 07:45 AM.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  15. #15
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,196

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Even in my moments of unbelief I'm still pro-life. I like the stance the church has taken on the matter, which isn't totally pro-life, but allows for some abortion in instances where it obviously makes sense (rape, incest, health of mother, etc.). I can see if being necessary in other cases, but I think it should be rare, or rarer than rare. Of course, my stance would also require easy access to birth control (of all kinds) as well as a lot of public education about safe sex (including abstinence).

    There are so many people in the world that can't have children that want to have them. Adoption is a great alternative and one that prevents mothers who don't want to be mothers from having their only option being abortion.
    For healthy, middle class white babies, it is a viable alternative. For others, not so much.

    It is wrong if you assume there is a God who has stated it is wrong.

    However, outside of that assumption where the conclusion is assumed within the premises, what is wrong with people deciding if they want to become parents or not, or if a woman wants to bear a child? That is the crux of the matter. I am not trying to open up the Pandora's box, but merely reminding you that the debate is endless about right and wrong on this emotional issue.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  16. #16
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    The Republic of Tejas
    Posts
    20,402

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    And yes, for white babies of healthy middle to upper class mothers, adoption is a great alternative.
    I'm curious why it's not for other groups. I have such little experience with adoption that I'll claim ignorance, but I see people adopting all different kinds of babies from inner city to foreign born.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  17. #17

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I'm curious why it's not for other groups. I have such little experience with adoption that I'll claim ignorance, but I see people adopting all different kinds of babies from inner city to foreign born.
    I don't know why it is--I'm guessing that more adoptive parents are white and there are concerns about raising mixed-race households? Still, despite your anecdotal experience, it's well-documented that there are many more black children waiting for adoption than white or even mixed-race, even to the extent that fees are often lower if a couple is willing to adopt a black child.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  18. #18
    Senior Member Clark Addison's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The Beautiful South
    Posts
    7,109

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I don't know why it is--I'm guessing that more adoptive parents are white and there are concerns about raising mixed-race households? Still, despite your anecdotal experience, it's well-documented that there are many more black children waiting for adoption than white or even mixed-race, even to the extent that fees are often lower if a couple is willing to adopt a black child.
    Is that true of infants, or just any child in the foster care system? I had thought that there was more demand than supply for infants of any race, but there were a lot of older kids that had a hard time being adopted, a disproportionate amount of them black. I admit I am not close to the situation, and could be wrong.

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Addison View Post
    Is that true of infants, or just any child in the foster care system? I had thought that there was more demand than supply for infants of any race, but there were a lot of older kids that had a hard time being adopted, a disproportionate amount of them black. I admit I am not close to the situation, and could be wrong.
    I would assume it's true of both, although I guess I haven't looked at the age breakdown. I'm not sure it makes a difference on the discussion. Older foster children either come from unadopted infants or parental/familial breakdowns, which I assume would be higher in cases of unwanted pregnancies.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  20. #20
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Davis County
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Addison View Post
    Is that true of infants, or just any child in the foster care system? I had thought that there was more demand than supply for infants of any race, but there were a lot of older kids that had a hard time being adopted, a disproportionate amount of them black. I admit I am not close to the situation, and could be wrong.
    This is more the case.

    There are a LOT of children of all races, who are older in foster care, waiting to be adopted. However, minority children tend to be over-represented. And people just aren't lining up to adopt older children. In Utah, at least, this is complicated by the fact that the youngest children with the fewest emotional/behavioral problems are typically adopted by their foster parents. So the children that are waiting to be adopted tend to be 7-8 years old and older AND tend to have more severe emotional and behavioral issues.

    A couple of years ago I met with the person overseeing LDS Family Services adoption services in Utah. She indicated to me that LDSFS had more than 700 approved adoptive homestudies of families waiting to adopt along the Wasatch Front - but that they simply didn't have the number of children being given up for adoption to meet that demand and the AVERAGE wait for a family was 7 years.

    I suspect that eventually the supply might outpace the demand - but at this point in time I don't think it does. A bigger issue might be children with obvious developmental or physical handicaps. But it isn't an issue (at least right now) finding enough adoptive families for newborn infants of any color.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Davis County
    Posts
    6,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I would assume it's true of both, although I guess I haven't looked at the age breakdown. I'm not sure it makes a difference on the discussion. Older foster children either come from unadopted infants or parental/familial breakdowns, which I assume would be higher in cases of unwanted pregnancies.
    Very few of the older children in foster care started as infants in foster care. Especially in the past year or two - the state has gotten pretty good at placing kids with adoptive families. And there is no shortage of families willing to adopt children 5 and younger.

    Most of the older children in foster care came into foster care as older children. And then just stayed there.

    It is true that the are in foster care due to some familial/parental breakdown - but I think it would be a false premise to assume that this means the children were unwanted. It might mean that the parents were not capable to parent to begin with and shouldn't have had children. It might mean that the parents got wrapped up in drugs and became bad parents over time. It's also fairly common to have a step-parent come along who might not have the same feelings for the child/children as the bio-parent. But having met with many of these parents myself - you would be wrong to assume that the children were unwanted from birth.

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    This is more the case.

    There are a LOT of children of all races, who are older in foster care, waiting to be adopted. However, minority children tend to be over-represented. And people just aren't lining up to adopt older children. In Utah, at least, this is complicated by the fact that the youngest children with the fewest emotional/behavioral problems are typically adopted by their foster parents. So the children that are waiting to be adopted tend to be 7-8 years old and older AND tend to have more severe emotional and behavioral issues.

    A couple of years ago I met with the person overseeing LDS Family Services adoption services in Utah. She indicated to me that LDSFS had more than 700 approved adoptive homestudies of families waiting to adopt along the Wasatch Front - but that they simply didn't have the number of children being given up for adoption to meet that demand and the AVERAGE wait for a family was 7 years.

    I suspect that eventually the supply might outpace the demand - but at this point in time I don't think it does. A bigger issue might be children with obvious developmental or physical handicaps. But it isn't an issue (at least right now) finding enough adoptive families for newborn infants of any color.
    In Utah, I don't doubt that's the case, but Utah is obviously an anomaly wrt demand for children, as well as supply of minority children. Is that the case nationally?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    Very few of the older children in foster care started as infants in foster care. Especially in the past year or two - the state has gotten pretty good at placing kids with adoptive families. And there is no shortage of families willing to adopt children 5 and younger.

    Most of the older children in foster care came into foster care as older children. And then just stayed there.

    It is true that the are in foster care due to some familial/parental breakdown - but I think it would be a false premise to assume that this means the children were unwanted. It might mean that the parents were not capable to parent to begin with and shouldn't have had children. It might mean that the parents got wrapped up in drugs and became bad parents over time. It's also fairly common to have a step-parent come along who might not have the same feelings for the child/children as the bio-parent. But having met with many of these parents myself - you would be wrong to assume that the children were unwanted from birth.
    I didn't mean to imply that all older foster children were unwanted originally. I'm just arguing that a child is more likely to end up in the foster system if they were the result of an unwanted pregnancy. (I'm also defining familial breakdown rather widely, and it would obviously include many factors outside of unfit mothers)
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    There are so many people in the world that can't have children that want to have them. Adoption is a great alternative and one that prevents mothers who don't want to be mothers from having their only option being abortion.
    I have a couple of cousins who were adopted, and know of several others adopted by friends. I sense that the majority of them are happy and well-adjusted. I do know a couple of kids who really struggle emotionally with the knowledge that their birth mother gave them away. I think for some, it is a source of pain feeling that they weren't loved enough by their birth mothers.

    I know someone else who has spent about 20 years being a foster parent. He really tries hard to instill in those kids his sense of morality. He tries to make a positive difference. He even adopted one. He has seen his share of disappointments, and most kids seem to not progress much from the typical foster kid cycle.

    I say this because there is a potential emotional cost to adoption. Even my cousins who seem happy now, struggled a lot with their self worth their teen years. For a while, one of them came close to breaking down and leaving her family. I want to be clear, I really do think that most adoptions are a net benefit for both the kids and the parents. I would absolutely encourage adoption for those women who are opposed to abortion. But I don't think it's the best option for most pregnant women who don't want their children.

    There is an emotional cost to carrying a baby to term and putting it up for adoption. Just like there's a cost for abortion. I would much rather have the woman who is going to deal with those costs to be free to make those decisions, since she will deal with the consequences.
    Last edited by Northwestcoug; 05-13-2014 at 09:12 AM.

  24. #24
    Royal Rooter Green Monstah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Up from third base to Huntington
    Posts
    9,723

    Default

    I tried watching the video, but couldn't do it.

    I think I understand the arguments in favor of abortion, but in the end, the thought of aborting a child as a means of birth control makes me incredibly sad.
    Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

    "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

  25. #25
    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lehi
    Posts
    4,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    In Utah, I don't doubt that's the case, but Utah is obviously an anomaly wrt demand for children, as well as supply of minority children. Is that the case nationally?
    I've had a lot of neighbors and co-workers trying to adopt. They look all over the US and have a hard time getting selected by birth mothers. The other issue that I've observed is quite often the birth mother changes her mind or the birth father decides to get involved.

    If all abortions were suddenly stopped in the US, there might be an over supply issue. But right now in my anecdotal experience, there isn't enough supply in the US to meet demand.

  26. #26
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    God's Country!
    Posts
    9,681

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Monstah View Post
    I tried watching the video, but couldn't do it.

    I think I understand the arguments in favor of abortion, but in the end, the thought of aborting a child as a means of birth control makes me incredibly sad.
    I made no effort to watch the video and I am openly perplexed by anyone who would. I just miss the days when stories of abortion/justifications on behalf of it were made reasonable. This example hit me because there was no effort to explain it other than the pregnancy was inconvenient even if the genesis of it was total irresponsibility. Somewhere along the line those advocating for Pro-Choice decided there was no longer a need to not be so openly offensive about abortion. I maintain that is not a good thing.
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I'm choosing to mostly ignore your fatuity here and instead overwhelm you with so much data that you'll maybe, just maybe, realize that you have reams to read on this subject before you can contribute meaningfully to any conversation on this topic.
    -DOCTOR Wuap

  27. #27

    Default

    I'm awaiting statistics on infant adoption by race to go with these anecdotal experiences. I'm open to the possibility that there is all black babies find welcoming homes, but I'm skeptical.

    Even so, this is a bit of a detour from the point, as it ignores a host of other arguments on the issue, ranging from pragmatic to moral.

    As for the video, I didn't watch it either. I wonder if any of the same people who are disgusted by the abortion procedure have watched an execution performed.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

  28. #28
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    The Republic of Tejas
    Posts
    20,402

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    As for the video, I didn't watch it either. I wonder if any of the same people who are disgusted by the abortion procedure have watched an execution performed.
    I didn't watch it and I'm also on record being against the death penalty in all cases. I don't think I'll ever get to a point like NWCoug when he said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    I would absolutely encourage adoption for those women who are opposed to abortion. But I don't think it's the best option for most pregnant women who don't want their children.
    I understand there's an emotional toll, but I guess as someone that believes in the Mormon Gospel I'd choose life and struggles for a child/teenager over not allowing a life at all. It's just my opinion, but I'd hope that women who don't even want the child would carry it to term and give it up for adoption.

    I'll also add that abortion by choice has some very ugly consequences, most of which are not seen in the US. I posted an article a couple years ago about a country (China? India?) that had an abnormal ratio of male/female babies. Essentially parents were aborting the females at higher rates as most parents wanted a male baby first. So allowing (or not prosecuting) abortions under the guise that it's a woman's choice was likely to have some profound and lasting effects on women's rights into the future.

    I still think that proper education and easier access to birth control could drastically reduce the need for abortions....but that's just my uninformed opinion.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  29. #29
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    The 208
    Posts
    9,341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I don't know why it is--I'm guessing that more adoptive parents are white and there are concerns about raising mixed-race households? Still, despite your anecdotal experience, it's well-documented that there are many more black children waiting for adoption than white or even mixed-race, even to the extent that fees are often lower if a couple is willing to adopt a black child.
    True.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  30. #30

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I didn't watch it and I'm also on record being against the death penalty in all cases. I don't think I'll ever get to a point like NWCoug when he said this:

    I understand there's an emotional toll, but I guess as someone that believes in the Mormon Gospel I'd choose life and struggles for a child/teenager over not allowing a life at all. It's just my opinion, but I'd hope that women who don't even want the child would carry it to term and give it up for adoption.

    I'll also add that abortion by choice has some very ugly consequences, most of which are not seen in the US. I posted an article a couple years ago about a country (China? India?) that had an abnormal ratio of male/female babies. Essentially parents were aborting the females at higher rates as most parents wanted a male baby first. So allowing (or not prosecuting) abortions under the guise that it's a woman's choice was likely to have some profound and lasting effects on women's rights into the future.

    I still think that proper education and easier access to birth control could drastically reduce the need for abortions....but that's just my uninformed opinion.
    I understand where you're coming from. As an aside, I would like to get to a place where abortion only happens rarely. But as you said, that's going to take a huge coordinated effort that emphasizes contraception and other measures.

    Having said that, I think most research suggests that the consequences of abortion are relatively mild when compared to the effects of delivering unwanted children (putting aside your legitimate concerns in China). It might help to focus on women outside of the church, where the stigma of 'near murder' and consequences for sin are not as prevalent. I had an OB/GYN in med school, who claimed matter of factly that he would rather deal with the moral consequences of abortion himself than force a teen girl to carry an pregnancy to term. Back then I bristled at what I thought was his callousness to an extremely important moral dilemma. But as I've thought of that, I have more or less come around to his side. Kids make stupid mistakes all the time. If there isn't a background belief of abortion as sin, I tend to think that the costs of a teen aborting a baby would be less than the consequences of carrying a baby to term, even if it was given up for adoption. The potential of stunting a girl's education, career, and self-esteem is very real. We try to help our kids through mistakes they've made, in order to minimize their effects once they've left the house. It probably sounds very callous, but teen pregnancies are mistakes, and in most instances carrying a baby to term will curtail a life's trajectory for that girl.

    Incidentally, I agonized over questions like these while I was still an active believer. Before I made my exit, I did come to the conclusion that assisting a teen with an abortion was not sin, and that I could live with that on my conscience. Interestingly, although Mrs. NWC is pro-choice, she said 'no' when we played the hypothetical game of 'would you have an abortion' now that she isn't a believer. It does carry significant potential downsides. I do agree that abortion is not an easy decision. It shouldn't be viewed as a primary contraceptive choice (I haven't watched the video Goat posted). But in some instances it is a 'better' choice than carrying a baby to term.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •