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Ukraine - somebody explain to me

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  • #16
    I thought this was a pretty concise summary of some of the pertinent history:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/03/...ian-hangovers/

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Pheidippides View Post
      Why everybody is up in arms over Russia's involvement.

      Background: The largest ethnic component of me is Ukrainian. I do have some understanding of the geopolitics and situation. Moreover, I grew up with at least a portion of the ethnic pride that is apparent - you never made the mistake of calling my Baba's food "Russian" twice, or mistaking which language she spoke. Cardiac will be far better versed than I am, however.

      So, at any rate, my understanding is that (1) a large portion of the Crimeans are of Russian ethnicity, so much so that they were semi - autonomous already, (2) they effectively declared independence from the Ukraine, and (3) the Russian Black Sea fleet is stationed permanently in Crimea and has been for years. If that's the case, why wouldn't we expect Russia and Putin to be involved?!? I'm not exactly seeing the surprise. Concern is obvious because nobody wants to have a bloody war with people dying of course.
      I can see why Ukranians might not like it. Simple trauma born of experience. For example, in the thirties Stalin murdered over 3 million Ukranian peasants to facilitate collectivization, mostly women and children and elderly and mostly by starvation. He said they were dying on purpose to undermine communism.
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

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      • #18
        Originally posted by snowcat View Post
        Here are some of the reasons why I am concerned.


        3) China is now backing the Russian military takeover. I am not sure this is a good thing for the future.


        5) The west looks very weak. How will this impact other problem areas in the world (North Korea, China and Taiwan, Iran, Syria, Venezuela).
        I worry about this conflict spreading. If we were to back them up militarily I could see China making a play for Taiwan, and Iran getting agressive.

        Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
        Havent followed this in detail because I'm too depressed at the turn of events. As I am in a murderous mood, here are my not-so-well-intentioned suggestions.


        I get impatient with Obama as he seem's like Putin's bitch, outmaneuvered by Putin at every turn, and not just with respect to Ukraine. He also seems weak and ineffectual, and now a lot of Ukrainians will lose their freedom while Obama is proposing more educational programs for disadvantaged youth. However, my contempt for Obama is moderated by the following:
        Obama sure got played by Putin on Syria. In retrospect a NATO missile strike would have been helpful. The world needs to react and oppose any use of chemical weapons.

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        • #19
          There's a subreddit called http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/ that helps me catch up sometimes on stuff I don't know much about. But, it's all user-supplied content; you have to depend on the upvoting on comments and rebuttals to see if it's sound sometimes.
          "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
            Havent followed this in detail because I'm too depressed at the turn of events. As I am in a murderous mood, here are my not-so-well-intentioned suggestions.

            The Crimea is lost. Ukraine should just give it to Russia in return for Russia's pullout.
            If Russia accepts the deal Ukraine should begin ethnic cleansing in southeastern Ukraine, and push every ethnic Russian over the border into the Crimea. Then the russians can all be united with Russia, which is what they want, and the Crimea is much nicer than most of southeastern Ukraine.

            I get impatient with Obama as he seem's like Putin's bitch, outmaneuvered by Putin at every turn, and not just with respect to Ukraine. He also seems weak and ineffectual, and now a lot of Ukrainians will lose their freedom while Obama is proposing more educational programs for disadvantaged youth. However, my contempt for Obama is moderated by the following:

            1. Ukraine is to Russia as Mexico is to the US. A preference trade partner with common history, language, and geography. The US threatening Russia on Ukraine is like the Russians invading Mexico. Or Cuba. Oh wait...

            2. So the US trying to enact military threats in the Crimea would be like Russia trying to move troops into Tijuana. It's so easy for the US to defend a neighbor.

            3. Obama is symptommatic of US voters in general-- we all have war fatique and don't want to fight anymore. And if that means that we ignore our values of freedom and liberty and look the other way while the Russkies take something, we will.

            KL your comments don't mention the fact that Ukraine has a relationship with Europe that is independent of the Russia-US tug-of-war. A majority of Ukrainians want closer economic, cultural and political ties with Europe, not Russia. I know it's not how you intend it, but focusing on the US and Russia elements while not mentioning Europe distorts the picture a bit.

            Pheidippides to your original point - I agree that in the aftermath of Maidan Russia making some kind of move on Crimea was both obvious and inevitable. Obvious because Putin's control over Ukraine was at least partially broken and he was bound to react, inevitable because there is no plausible Western military response to such a move. So I don't think it should be surprising. But that doesn't mean that it doesn't constitute a totally unprovoked breach of Ukraine's sovereignty, of multiple treaties and of international law and that people shouldn't be really pissed off by it and be looking for every available means to punch Russia in its economic groin.
            Ute-ī sunt fīmī differtī

            It can't all be wedding cake.

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            • #21
              If the Ukraine were a NATO member, this could get messy in a hurry. Since it's not, this feels like some bad Tom Clancy novel instead of a Hunt for Red October.
              "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

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              • #22
                It's funny to see so many people say Putin outmaneuvered Obama. It's like if we invaded Canada and everyone said Obama outmaneuvered Putin. What do you do about a beligerant like Putin invading his neighbor? Who wants us to get involved in a land war in Asia?

                By the way, Putin is an Orthodox Christian.
                When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                --Jonathan Swift

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                • #23
                  What bugs me most about these situations (like Syria, and Egypt also) is how easy it seems for irate protests to spiral out of control toppling or seriously challenging the government. There is no path to prosperity for nations in turmoil like this, as it seems like the new regime is just a different "flavor of corrupt" than the old one. Not all nations are prepared for democracy in would seem.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                    By the way, Putin is an Orthodox Christian.
                    This has got to be a PR NIGHTMARE for the Orthodox Church about now.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by wally View Post
                      This has got to be a PR NIGHTMARE for the Orthodox Church about now.
                      It's funny how every religious persion thinks it's not his PR nightmare. Is it a coincidence that all the wars are now caused by religious people? Oops. Actually they always were.
                      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                      --Jonathan Swift

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                        It's funny how every religious persion thinks it's not his PR nightmare. Is it a coincidence that all the wars are now caused by religious people? Oops. Actually they always were.
                        What's definitely not a coincidence is you missing obvious sarcasm.
                        Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

                        There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                          It's funny how every religious persion thinks it's not his PR nightmare. Is it a coincidence that all the wars are now caused by religious people? Oops. Actually they always were.
                          Agreed. This is going to keep Organized Religion's PR department working overtime.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by wally View Post
                            What bugs me most about these situations (like Syria, and Egypt also) is how easy it seems for irate protests to spiral out of control toppling or seriously challenging the government. There is no path to prosperity for nations in turmoil like this, as it seems like the new regime is just a different "flavor of corrupt" than the old one. Not all nations are prepared for democracy in would seem.
                            It took France several hundred years and 5 revolutions to get where they are now. Throwing off an old regime, especially an incredibly powerful one, doesn't happen overnight. Every increased taste of freedom and democracy is a step in the right direction.
                            "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Donuthole View Post
                              What's definitely not a coincidence is you missing obvious sarcasm.
                              Am I supposed to expressly acknowledge it before carrying the repartee further? That's not the way clever people do it.
                              When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                              --Jonathan Swift

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                                Am I supposed to expressly acknowledge it before carrying the repartee further? That's not the way clever people do it.
                                lol. Nice try.
                                Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

                                There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

                                Comment

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