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Thread: Shame on Orrin Hatch - The Patron Saint of Quack Medicine

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    I noticed the guy married his wife's best friend.

    didnt get past the first page and the part where he compared mental illness in pigs to mental illness in humans. I assume his business model is to promote good eating to cure depression? Sounds like a great MLM opportunity.
    His magical mixture or vitamins will cure any mental or emotional illnesses. This is huge news
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  2. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    I noticed the guy married his wife's best friend.

    didnt get past the first page and the part where he compared mental illness in pigs to mental illness in humans. I assume his business model is to promote good eating to cure depression? Sounds like a great MLM opportunity.
    Tony also had this cryptic quote:

    Already, we had buried my father-in-law to death by suicide, and now my sweetheart,
    Which was it? Did you bury your father-in-law to death or did he commit suicide? You can't have it both ways.

  3. #33
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    This stuff hastened my friends' death last month: http://gerson.org/gerpress/the-gerson-therapy/

    He had stage 3 lung cancer, refused medical treatment, and went for the coffee enemas, organic fruit juices, and "enzymes" that are supposed to flush the ever-present-in-alternative-medicine "toxins" that cause ALL illnesses (instead of his smoking). He looked fairly healthy at Thanksgiving, started it in early December, and was dead on New Year's Eve. I call it assisted suicide.

    And, I think he said it was $15,000 a week. That's not confirmed though, and I can't ask him anymore.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    This stuff hastened my friends' death last month: http://gerson.org/gerpress/the-gerson-therapy/

    He had stage 3 lung cancer, refused medical treatment, and went for the coffee enemas, organic fruit juices, and "enzymes" that are supposed to flush the ever-present-in-alternative-medicine "toxins" that cause ALL illnesses (instead of his smoking). He looked fairly healthy at Thanksgiving, started it in early December, and was dead on New Year's Eve. I call it assisted suicide.

    And, I think he said it was $15,000 a week. That's not confirmed though, and I can't ask him anymore.
    Gerson therapy is indeed a scam. I think that is the same thing that Steve Jobs used.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Gerson therapy is indeed a scam. I think that is the same thing that Steve Jobs used.
    Tellingly, the Institute is in San Diego, while the treatment center is in Tijuana. Look at this bullshit, “The moment a patient is put on the full therapy, the combined effect of the food, the juices and the medication causes the immune system to attack and kill tumor tissue, besides working to flush out accumulated toxins from the body tissues. This great clearing-out procedure carries the risk of overburdening and poisoning the liver—the all-important organ of detoxification, which, in a cancer patient, is bound to be already damaged and debilitated.”
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  6. #36
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    This is just wrong:

    I have a child with cancer. Can I bring them down for treatment?
    This is a VERY sensitive question. It is illegal in the United States to treat cancer with anything other than chemotherapy, radiation and surgery! Your child is actually considered an entity of the state up until they are 18 years of age. Therefore, children under 18 are FORCED to do chemotherapy and radiation. You see these battles in the press regularly between the State and parents where the State threatens to take the children away via Social Services and the parents go to jail if the parents refuse to do chemotherapy and radiation. DO NOT mention to your oncologist that you prefer to do a natural therapy as they will likely call Social Services IMMEDIATELY and you may lose your child. Our advice is that you feel out your oncologist very carefully to see if they would be willing to allow you to consider other “alternatives” (DO NOT BE SPECIFIC) and, if they are, you get them to legally sign something communicating that willingness to let you try something else. They may do this for you in cases where there is nothing else they can do for the child. I, personally, immediately upon diagnosis would disappear and do the Gerson Therapy somewhere I could not be found. We have watched many children die because they were forced to get chemo and radiation when they could have been saved with a natural therapy such as the Gerson Therapy. It is tragic at best and just goes to show you how corrupt the medical profession has become!


    http://gersontreatment.com/natural-cancer-treat/
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    This is just wrong:

    I have a child with cancer. Can I bring them down for treatment?
    This is a VERY sensitive question. It is illegal in the United States to treat cancer with anything other than chemotherapy, radiation and surgery! Your child is actually considered an entity of the state up until they are 18 years of age. Therefore, children under 18 are FORCED to do chemotherapy and radiation. You see these battles in the press regularly between the State and parents where the State threatens to take the children away via Social Services and the parents go to jail if the parents refuse to do chemotherapy and radiation. DO NOT mention to your oncologist that you prefer to do a natural therapy as they will likely call Social Services IMMEDIATELY and you may lose your child. Our advice is that you feel out your oncologist very carefully to see if they would be willing to allow you to consider other “alternatives” (DO NOT BE SPECIFIC) and, if they are, you get them to legally sign something communicating that willingness to let you try something else. They may do this for you in cases where there is nothing else they can do for the child. I, personally, immediately upon diagnosis would disappear and do the Gerson Therapy somewhere I could not be found. We have watched many children die because they were forced to get chemo and radiation when they could have been saved with a natural therapy such as the Gerson Therapy. It is tragic at best and just goes to show you how corrupt the medical profession has become!


    http://gersontreatment.com/natural-cancer-treat/
    Shameless. There are 2-3 chapters in the book I mention above about Cancer quacks. The stories just break your heart. This goes well beyond people messing around with herbs and getting a placebo effect. In this case, the quacks (and their political enablers) have blood on their hands. All to make money. It is evil.

    "Of all the ghouls who feed on the bodies of the dead and dying, the cancer quacks are the most vicious and heartless." —Morris Fishbein, former editor of the Journal of the American Medical Association
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  8. #38

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    I hate this bullshit.

    Explaining to people why this type of stuff won't/doesn't work is tiresome. If it worked, the medical community would embrace it and use it.
    Will donate kidney for B12 membership.

  9. #39

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    A friend just posted this on Facebook.

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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
    A friend just posted this on Facebook.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    Barf...

    Feel free to use my Morris Fishbein quote above.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by ewth8tr View Post
    A friend just posted this on Facebook.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk
    That's funny. I saw something posted the other day about how 97% of terminal cancer patients have had a root canal. The heavy implication (maybe it was explicitly stated--i can't remember) was that root canals cause all kinds of medical problems, including cancer.

    EDIT: found the link

    http://www.realfarmacy.com/97-of-ter...tal-procedure/
    Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

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  12. #42

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    I like a lot of things Hatch has done and the political tone he has used but his mlm crap is awful. Being owned by that industry isn't better than being own by Mexican drug cartels.
    "Just watched the speech. He lit up both sides. I loved it." -Shaka

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by frank ryan View Post
    Being owned by that industry isn't better than being own by Mexican drug cartels.
    I respectfully disagree.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    I respectfully disagree.
    That's because you're the Heisenberg of the midwest. Everybody knows that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    I respectfully disagree.
    A person earns more money with the quack industry?

  16. #46
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Contrast the vitamin industry with this http://voices.washingtonpost.com/che...mouthwash.html



    I'm not really sure how you were supposed to administer it, but I have some ideas.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Contrast the vitamin industry with this http://voices.washingtonpost.com/che...mouthwash.html



    I'm not really sure how you were supposed to administer it, but I have some ideas.

  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I'm not really sure how you were supposed to administer it, but I have some ideas.
    You gargle it. Move it around to get even exposure using your lips, cheeks, and periodic bursts of air pressure.
    Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss

    There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donuthole View Post
    You gargle it. Move it around to get even exposure using your lips, cheeks, and periodic bursts of air pressure.
    I believe a YouTube video of that might get you kicked out of BYU-I.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  20. #50

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    I ranted on facebook a few weeks ago about this, urging people to memorize the phrase "double blinded randomized placebo controlled trial" to use whenever the next MLM ward member approaches them. Because really--they have no answer and that's the quickest way to deal with them.
    The girl who does my wife's hair keeps giving her samples of her overpriced caffeine/bicarb combination performance pill or another one that miraculously cures back pain. My wife asked her about studies and her response was "I'm not really a study person. I just know it works for me." I'll leave out the commentary on the unique susceptibility Mormons have to this kind of thinking (oh...oops!) and just point out that the reason that this quackery takes hold is that the placebo effect is real. Doctors aren't exempt from this. Anyone who's been given a Z-pack for sinusitis or bronchitis or a cold have also taken a completely useless therapy (and may have "gotten better", just like they would have with a sugar pill).
    The question is, how do we take advantage of the placebo effect? I don't have a huge problem with echinacea because it's cheap and relatively harmless (if it's from a well-established--of course, the lack of oversight of these companies is another huge problem), and it can have a nice placebo effect. It's much better than the alternative--antibiotics that aren't cheap, are harmful, and increase antibiotic resistance.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
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  21. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I ranted on facebook a few weeks ago about this, urging people to memorize the phrase "double blinded randomized placebo controlled trial" to use whenever the next MLM ward member approaches them. Because really--they have no answer and that's the quickest way to deal with them.
    The girl who does my wife's hair keeps giving her samples of her overpriced caffeine/bicarb combination performance pill or another one that miraculously cures back pain. My wife asked her about studies and her response was "I'm not really a study person. I just know it works for me." I'll leave out the commentary on the unique susceptibility Mormons have to this kind of thinking (oh...oops!) and just point out that the reason that this quackery takes hold is that the placebo effect is real. Doctors aren't exempt from this. Anyone who's been given a Z-pack for sinusitis or bronchitis or a cold have also taken a completely useless therapy (and may have "gotten better", just like they would have with a sugar pill).
    The question is, how do we take advantage of the placebo effect? I don't have a huge problem with echinacea because it's cheap and relatively harmless (if it's from a well-established--of course, the lack of oversight of these companies is another huge problem), and it can have a nice placebo effect. It's much better than the alternative--antibiotics that aren't cheap, are harmful, and increase antibiotic resistance.
    How about this one : "Sis. _____'s husband had been allergic to chicken, but after he tried this treatment from Dr. ____ (a chiropractor -- it's frequently a chiropractor), he was all of a sudden able to eat chicken."

    -- "Honey, that's complete and utter bullshit."

    "Then how can he eat chicken now?"

    -- "Because we don't know if he was allergic to chicken in the first place, it was probably psychosomatic if anything. And the placebo effect is especially powerful as it relates to psychosomatic issues."

    "The medical industry and pharmaceutical industry has a ton of money and they have a vested interest in people not using these kinds of treatments. They want to keep all of that money with the doctors, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies."

    -- "Pharmaceutical companies spend 100s of millions of dollars in carefully scrutinized studies and clinical trials to get a medication to market. This chiropractor decided to drop a piece of chicken into a vial and tape it to someone's skin. There's no possible trial involving this 'therapy' that could fool a ninth grader taking biology."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nambudr...ion_Techniques
    Last edited by Color Me Badd Fan; 01-29-2014 at 01:44 PM.
    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    "The medical industry and pharmaceutical industry has a ton of money and they have a vested interest in people not using these kinds of treatments. They want to keep all of that money with the doctors, hospitals and pharmaceutical companies."
    This is one that steams me. Alternative medicine is a multi-billion dollar industry. And when I teach my kids the concept of "conflict of interest", the best example I can think of is when the person diagnosing your illness also happens to be the person selling you the cure.

    People jump from the arms of Big Pharma right into the arms of Big Placebo.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    This is one that steams me. Alternative medicine is a multi-billion dollar industry. And when I teach my kids the concept of "conflict of interest", the best example I can think of is when the person diagnosing your illness also happens to be the person selling you the cure.

    People jump from the arms of Big Pharma right into the arms of Big Placebo.
    What's amazing to me is anyone that learned anything from high school biology and chemistry should know this stuff is complete nonsense. Notice how the quackier theories get into notions of "electromagnetic [insert a nebulous noun" and "energy pathways" and how you can get a phD in Biology, Chemistry, and various engineering fields (e.g. biochemical engineering) and never hear the terms these chiropractors throw out there. There's a total and complete lack of science behind it.

    But intelligent people fall for this crap. Steve Jobs and Dave Rose got the same form of cancer. Jobs, who's regarded as being extremely brilliant, fell for some of this nonsense and is dead. Dave Rose trusted the people who are supposed to know about these things and he's still alive. Jobs was oblivious to the limitations of his own range of knowledge.
    Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Color Me Badd Fan View Post
    What's amazing to me is anyone that learned anything from high school biology and chemistry should know this stuff is complete nonsense. Notice how the quackier theories get into notions of "electromagnetic [insert a nebulous noun" and "energy pathways" and how you can get a phD in Biology, Chemistry, and various engineering fields (e.g. biochemical engineering) and never hear the terms these chiropractors throw out there. There's a total and complete lack of science behind it.

    But intelligent people fall for this crap. Steve Jobs and Dave Rose got the same form of cancer. Jobs, who's regarded as being extremely brilliant, fell for some of this nonsense and is dead. Dave Rose trusted the people who are supposed to know about these things and he's still alive. Jobs was oblivious to the limitations of his own range of knowledge.
    What kills you is to read the stories of people with small children who are diagnosed in the early stages of perfectly treatable cancer and then they refuse standard treatment for a regimen of coffee enemas, magnets, etc. and the kid winds up dead. And the parents often wind up bankrupt.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  25. #55
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    If Big Placebo is your line, that's pretty damned clever.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  26. #56

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    the best response to the anti-vaccination dummies:



    or, alternatively.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  27. #57
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    If Big Placebo is your line, that's pretty damned clever.
    Nope. I read that line somewhere.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  28. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    My son recommended this book to me recently:

    Do You Believe in Magic?: The Sense and Nonsense of Alternative Medicine

    http://www.amazon.com/Do-You-Believe...0578761&sr=1-1

    I am about halfway through and it is a really good book. A page-turner. At the same time, I get pretty upset reading it. At the beginning of the book, it charts the history of medicine and shows how horrible things were just a century ago with a vast industry of snake oil salesman preying on the general public. It shows how we gradually started moving to evidenced-based medicine and started using double-blind clinical trials to sift the legit cures from the fraudulent cures. We made steady progress with the development of the FDA and a series of laws and regulations to protect the public from medicinal scams.

    In the early '90's some major legislation was proposed that would have put the final dagger in quack medicine, making it illegal to make fraudulent claims about the healing powers of any kind of health product. Sadly for all of us, it backfired and the quack industry put the dagger in the FDA. As the legislation was making steam, the tycoons of the quack industry gathered at a large estate in California and planned what to do in order to protect their multi-billion dollar business. They decided to fund a massive campaign to stop the legislation and a core part of the strategy was to buy off a number of senators to lead the fight in Washington. The main target was our very own Orrin Hatch, who was already a fan alternative medicine and was already bought off by the supplement industry in Utah (many of which are also pyramid schemes). In a classic case of cronyism, they donated massive amounts to his campaign and he led an effort that not only killed the bill, but he wrote and successfully passed a bill that carved out a special exception for certain types of quack medicine. If your drug can be classified as a vitamin, herb (plant-based), etc (a few other criteria - can't remember the full list) then you can make ANY claim you want without any consequences whatsoever. Cures cancer? Sure, whatever. If your claim gets debunked by clinical trials, no problem. Just keep on committing fraud and lining your pockets with the money from desperate sick people and Orrin Hatch has your back. I wonder how many people have died because they wasted their money on fraudulent cures when they could have been using something that actually works. It is disgusting.
    This is absolutely not true.
    Last edited by snowcat; 01-29-2014 at 02:59 PM.
    One of the grandest benefits of the enlightenment was the realization that our moral sense must be based on the welfare of living individuals, not on their immortal souls. Honest and passionate folks can strongly disagree regarding spiritual matters, so it's imperative that we not allow such considerations to infringe on the real happiness of real people.

    Woot

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    SU

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowcat View Post
    This is absolutely not true.
    Care to elaborate?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  30. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    It is not legal for a supplement company to claim a product treats, prevents or cures and disease or it is immediately classified as an unapproved drug by the FDA.
    One of the grandest benefits of the enlightenment was the realization that our moral sense must be based on the welfare of living individuals, not on their immortal souls. Honest and passionate folks can strongly disagree regarding spiritual matters, so it's imperative that we not allow such considerations to infringe on the real happiness of real people.

    Woot

    I believe religion has much inherent good and has born many good fruits.
    SU

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