Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski
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Originally posted by byu71 View PostReally?? Maybe when you get a little older and are more mature you won't make such assisnine generalities."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Indy Coug View PostAssuming that in tandem with simply following everything the brethren they have somehow failed to cultivate a strong, independent spiritual witness of the Gospel, you are probably right."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostI think the most problematic thing about the first vision accounts is not that they are different, but that the differences follow a trajectory that aligns with the changing/evolving doctrines of the church at the time. For example, the instructions to "restore" a church, no other churches were true, plurality of beings in the godhead, etc.made it uphad things revealed to him as he went along. By that I don't mean necessarily the First Vision accounts but Church structure, Church doctrine, and how he viewed himself as a Prophet evolved tremendously during his lifetime. He didn't know the end from the beginning. The Melchizedek Priesthood similarly sure seems like it was similarlymade upreinterpreted retrospectively to support later doctrine.
I guess I'm just saying that the apologetic view of the First Vision accounts makes sense to believers because it's absolutely true that we always see our personal history through the lens of what we became later in life. Somebody who feels happy and successful as an adult would likely describe early life and childhood as all these great things that led to his current state. Somebody who feels like a failure as an adult would describe his early life and education in opposite terms. It's like the way Bill Gates hacking computers as a kid is described as innocent and awesome because he later became Bill Gates. Kevin Mitnick's similar shenanigans meanwhile are sinister.
But sure I think most objective historians would conclude that Joseph Smith revised the specifics of the First Vision during the later accounts so it fit more with his later role as Prophet and restorer of the One True Church.
Still seems like the changing First Vision accounts should only be a problem for those who deify Joseph Smith and have an extremely simplistic view of Church history and the restoration.
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostThe "simply following the brethren" was an embellishment added by BYU71 in an attempt to hijack the discussion. My original post was addressing a mindset that the way to deal with thorny issues is to simply ignore them or pretend they don't exist. I don't think that is a healthy long-term strategy.
I actually think Jesus thought for himself, but he is quoted as saying "render unto Caesar........" which seems to me if there is a law follow it. He is also said to have said, not my will but the father's. Again seems to me to be a case of following in lieu of thinking for oneself.
Perhaps there was a thought process where the conclusion was to follow. Why would anyone then accuse a "follower" of not thinking for themselves. Maybe because they didn't come to the same conclusion as the accuser?
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Originally posted by byu71 View PostI think that is a bit harsh. A lot of them have thought for themselves and thought, I am going to follow what the brethern say.
You don't have extremely successsful people who do great things academically, financially, socially, etc. and because they have a follow the brethern attitude you can label them "people who don't think for themselves". I am sure you agree.
"If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
"I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
"Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!
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Originally posted by CardiacCoug View PostGotta say I agree with those who aren't bothered by different accounts of the First Vision.
I'm pretty sure if I told the same true story (about something that happened to me when I was 14) in 2010 and then retold it again in 2020 (say for example I posted it here on CS), the story would be told pretty differently.
For the person who is inclined to believe that God and angels and golden plates etc. are all real things I don't think the different First Vision accounts should be a big stumbling block. The real problem for the Church is that there are less and less of those people around.Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostI think the most problematic thing about the first vision accounts is not that they are different, but that the differences follow a trajectory that aligns with the changing/evolving doctrines of the church at the time. For example, the instructions to "restore" a church, no other churches were true, plurality of beings in the godhead, etc.
And this is pure BS from the website:
Some have mistakenly argued that any variation in the retelling of the story is evidence of fabrication. To the contrary, the rich historical record enables us to learn more about this remarkable event than we could if it were less well documented."...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
"You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
- SeattleUte
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Originally posted by CardiacCoug View PostStill seems like the changing First Vision accounts should only be a problem for those who deify Joseph Smith and have an extremely simplistic view of Church history and the restoration."What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone
"What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostThey are also the ones most likely to crash and burn when they finally crack open a history book or do a little googling.
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Originally posted by byu71 View PostUh, my use of the term "simply following the brethren" was in response to Uncle Ted's post. Maybe he should be the one determining if I was embellishing and adding. I think you give me far too much credit. It was a simple term I have heard that came into my head that could describe what "those who don't think for themselves" are accused of doing.
I actually think Jesus thought for himself, but he is quoted as saying "render unto Caesar........" which seems to me if there is a law follow it. He is also said to have said, not my will but the father's. Again seems to me to be a case of following in lieu of thinking for oneself.
Perhaps there was a thought process where the conclusion was to follow. Why would anyone then accuse a "follower" of not thinking for themselves. Maybe because they didn't come to the same conclusion as the accuser?
Originally posted by byu71 View PostThese people are the "base" to use a political term. They will be with you come hades or high water. They are the ones who see nothing wrong with a comment like "follow the brethern, even if you know they are wrong".
They may actually be the backbone of the church and why the honor code at BYU will never be changed, just in case you were wondering."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostNo it wasn't. This is what you typed in response to MY post:
I will also note that you were able to include two of your favorite dead horses in one post. Bravo for that. Unfortunately, neither one had anything to do with my point.
Just for clarification on what "beating a dead horse" means. Would those who claimed over and over again that the earth was round "beating a dead horse". Is that what leading scientists and religious leaders were saying to them, "you are beating a dead horse".
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Aren't there prophecies that generally say that in "the last days" people will fall away from the church. It's all part of the plan, and I'm dumb enough to believe that The Savior signed off on the (what was that word Lebowsji?) culling the wheat from the tares. Not everyone's a starter on The Lord's team.
Of course we have multiple dimensions to live out the scenarios of our lives so we can learn good from evil first hand. At least that's one path to becoming Omniscient.
When poet puts pen to paper imagination breathes life, finding hearth and home.
-Mid Summer's Night Dream
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Originally posted by jay santos View PostTell me kind sir, how did you do your googling in the 80's and 90's and which history books did you crack to read this easily accessible information the blind sheep should have been reading?
My wife was talking with some women in the stake and they were discussing faith crises resulting from members reading church history. Their proposed solution was to tell members to not study (or stop studying) church history. I don't think that is feasible or effective, especially in the long term. Would you disagree?
I have no idea what that has to do with the lack of internet in previous decades. In fact, it is the internet that has turned everything upside down."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by byu71 View PostJust for clarification on what "beating a dead horse" means. Would those who claimed over and over again that the earth was round "beating a dead horse". Is that what leading scientists and religious leaders were saying to them, "you are beating a dead horse"."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostWow. Just like BYU71, you are completely misinterpreting what I said. That is unusual for you.
My wife was talking with some women in the stake and they were discussing faith crises resulting from members reading church history. Their proposed solution was to tell members to not study (or stop studying) church history. I don't think that is feasible or effective, especially in the long term. Would you disagree?
I have no idea what that has to do with the lack of internet in previous decades. In fact, it is the internet that has turned everything upside down."If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
"I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
"Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!
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