Originally posted by USUC
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Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the News
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“Not the victory but the action. Not the goal but the game. In the deed the glory.”
"All things are measured against Nebraska." falafel
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Originally posted by USUC View PostI get the point he is making but framing the disagreement between ranchers and the BLM being based on an idealistic throwback to a bygone era is ridiculous. Its a bit more complicated than he is letting on. I'm not sure what his exact definition of socialism is, but this reeks of sensationalism with his use of it. This article reminds me a bit of the "You didn't build that" speech by Obama. Also, the success of the Mormon setters is a glaring omission to his point.
I highly recommend the book he references (Cadillac Desert). It is dated and has some bias, but an excellent (and eye-opening) book. Ranchers and farmers in the west indeed enjoy benefits from massive government subsidies."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostI didn't get that as the central theme of the article.
I highly recommend the book he references (Cadillac Desert). It is dated and has some bias, but an excellent (and eye-opening) book. Ranchers and farmers in the west indeed enjoy benefits from massive government subsidies.
My dad's family has been farmers/ranchers for 150 years. I never once heard anyone say "I wish government would get out so it could be like it used to be," I always heard "get government out of here because it is wasteful, overbearing, and isolated to the facts on the ground."
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I don't understand why people are fixated on the 'socialism' claim. I suppose it can be construed as sensationalist, but the author is debunking the the claim that the life and economic way of the modern rancher is the antithesis of socialism. It's an interesting article, and I learned more about the history of western land management. Hopefully I wasn't too brainwashed by modern journalism ."...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
"You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
- SeattleUte
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Originally posted by USUC View PostI guess I missed what the author's central theme was then. Is it simply that government has had a hand in the development of the West's infrastructure from the beginning right up to the present day? Well, sure. You couldn't argue otherwise. I took the article as a polemic against self-reliant individualism (short form for free market capitalism/small government conservatism). His premise appears to be that a) because the federal government was involved in handing out land and providing infrastructure, that anything less than the current system would be unsustainable and b) a philosophy of self reliance among Westerners is based on the myth of the cowboy.
My dad's family has been farmers/ranchers for 150 years. I never once heard anyone say "I wish government would get out so it could be like it used to be," I always heard "get government out of here because it is wasteful, overbearing, and isolated to the facts on the ground.""There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostYou should read Cadillac Desert. The premise is that western water infrastructure (the lifeblood of farming and ranching) goes well beyond "government has had a hand in the development". Rather, much of it was based on fudged data/economic analysis and political influence and was never even remotely justifiable in terms of return on investment. I.e., some of the biggest pork projects in history.
As a side note, I would guess that programs under the federal government have had a much bigger hand in negatively affecting the environment than some rancher letting his livestock graze. Nothing like government subsidized roads and access to water to encourage urban sprawl.
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostYou should read Cadillac Desert. The premise is that western water infrastructure (the lifeblood of farming and ranching) goes well beyond "government has had a hand in the development". Rather, much of it was based on fudged data/economic analysis and political influence and was never even remotely justifiable in terms of return on investment. I.e., some of the biggest pork projects in history."I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"
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Originally posted by Commando View PostRequired reading in Water Law. Mulholland's unseemly wresting away of water from Owens Valley via aqueduct to create Southern California™. Actually, I'd give it the distinction as the most interesting book in law school.
I signed up for the course, bought the books, and then had to rework my sched. Still, the recommendations of the book were so resounding, I didn't take it back. I ended up reading it after I graduated. And I agree, definitely more interesting than pretty much anything I read during law school.Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock
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Originally posted by Donuthole View Post
I signed up for the course, bought the books, and then had to rework my sched. Still, the recommendations of the book were so resounding, I didn't take it back. I ended up reading it after I graduated. And I agree, definitely more interesting than pretty much anything I read during law school.Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.
"The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American
GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!
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Originally posted by falafel View PostYou must not have read Problems and Materials on Secured Transactions by Whaley and McJohn.
"I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"
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Originally posted by USUC View PostI haven't read the book but I had to watch a documentary based off of the book (I assume at least) in a History of the American West course I took as an undergrad. That's probably the closest to reading it as I get. Maybe I am just blinded by ideology, but I just don't see how the federal government's involvement in infrastructure, past and present, makes the arguments for less federal involvement illegitimate. I understand there is plenty of people in agriculture sucking from the feds teat. If subsidies dry up, adjustments will be needed but will probably be for the better in the long run.
Originally posted by USUC View PostDoes the federal government really need to own 70% of Utah?
As a side note, I would guess that programs under the federal government have had a much bigger hand in negatively affecting the environment than some rancher letting his livestock graze. Nothing like government subsidized roads and access to water to encourage urban sprawl."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Commando View PostRequired reading in Water Law. Mulholland's unseemly wresting away of water from Owens Valley via aqueduct to create Southern California™. Actually, I'd give it the distinction as the most interesting book in law school.
(I would agree, the most interesting part of the book. )"There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Prepare to put mustard on those words, for you will soon be consuming them, along with this slice of humble pie that comes direct from the oven of shame set at gas mark “egg on your face”! -- Moss
There are three rules that I live by: never get less than twelve hours sleep; never play cards with a guy who has the same first name as a city; and never get involved with a woman with a tattoo of a dagger on her body. Now you stick to that, and everything else is cream cheese. --Coach Finstock
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Mormons in the News
Speaking of funerals...
http://www.sltrib.com/news/3504199-1...-to-draw-large
Nice to see this being held at an LDS chapel. Firearms and all.Last edited by Dwight Schr-ute; 02-05-2016, 04:05 PM.I told him he was a goddamn Nazi Stormtrooper.
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