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Thread: Mormons in the News

  1. #2941
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    I hope Prince wins. Parking enforcement does suck.
    Parking and its enforcement at BYU have always sucked as far back as the mid to late 70s. Before that, I cannot comment, perhaps 71 may elaborate. I hope he wins enough to retire on.
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  2. #2942

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    I'm guessing this one is going to hit the news cycle eventually.
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...dentities.html
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  3. #2943
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    I'm guessing this one is going to hit the news cycle eventually.
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...dentities.html
    I just skimmed it, but it seems like a fairly innocuous concept. Am I missing something?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    I'm guessing this one is going to hit the news cycle eventually.
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...dentities.html
    Whats wrong with that?
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  5. #2945

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I just skimmed it, but it seems like a fairly innocuous concept. Am I missing something?
    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Whats wrong with that?
    He just said it'll hit the news cycle. That doesn't mean anything has to be wrong with it.

  6. #2946

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    He just said it'll hit the news cycle. That doesn't mean anything has to be wrong with it.
    seriously. lol @ Lebowski and creekster!
    I'm like LeBron James.
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  7. #2947
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    He just said it'll hit the news cycle. That doesn't mean anything has to be wrong with it.
    Good point. Funk has a long track record of simply passing on interesting news about the church without any negative commentary.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  8. #2948

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Good point. Funk has a long track record of simply passing on interesting news about the church without any negative commentary.
    I think comparing chosen religious beliefs to qualities that someone is born with (race, gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.) is a terrible comparison. He is basically trying to create a narrative them someone is born with religious beliefs which is absurd.

    Also, the crying of persecution is equally absurd. The church has not been discriminated against in modern times. In contrast, in the lifetime of most people in this board the LDS has discriminated against people based on race. The LDS church is currently discriminating against people based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

    The church fiercely fought against homosexuals having the right to marry. They have advocated for discrimination. When they lose the battle, they turn around and ask to be given the same protections as historically discriminated classes. Yeah, I do see many problems with what Clayton is arguing.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  9. #2949
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    I'm guessing this one is going to hit the news cycle eventually.
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...dentities.html
    I agree with Clayton that religious identity deserves the same protections. Thankfully that is codified in the Constitution, so I’m not so sure why he’s worried about it or even saying it.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    I've been discriminated and the victim of hate because of my religion before. Many times actually. The only thing it did was help me develop my inner sanctimony, bolstering my position of spiritual and intellectual superiority.

    If I was as smart as Lebowski I'd be a real jerk too.
    Last edited by clackamascoug; 06-21-2018 at 09:52 AM.

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  11. #2951
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    I've been discriminated and the victim of hate because of my religion before. Many times actually. The only thing it did was help me develop my inner sanctimony, bolstering my positing of spiritual and intellectual superiority.

    If I was as smart as Lebowski I'd be a real jerk too.
    Clack, I got a legit LOL on your gray text. Well done.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  12. #2952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Clack, I got a legit LOL on your gray text. Well done.
    It was said in love.

    When poet puts pen to paper imagination breathes life, finding hearth and home.
    -Mid Summer's Night Dream


  13. #2953
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    I think comparing chosen religious beliefs to qualities that someone is born with (race, gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.) is a terrible comparison. He is basically trying to create a narrative them someone is born with religious beliefs which is absurd.

    Also, the crying of persecution is equally absurd. The church has not been discriminated against in modern times. In contrast, in the lifetime of most people in this board the LDS has discriminated against people based on race. The LDS church is currently discriminating against people based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

    The church fiercely fought against homosexuals having the right to marry. They have advocated for discrimination. When they lose the battle, they turn around and ask to be given the same protections as historically discriminated classes. Yeah, I do see many problems with what Clayton is arguing.
    The various groups he identifies may or may not be something someone is born with. Gender fluidity anyone? And yet the effort to elevate protections for these groups/identities places them above other similarly chosen identities. If you are going to allow people to claim protected status based on how they feel about generd or sexuality, whether it be from birth or more recently, then you should also allow religion to be among those protected states, particularly where the constitution already expressly guarantees the practice of religion.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  14. #2954

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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    I think comparing chosen religious beliefs to qualities that someone is born with (race, gender identity, sexual orientation, etc.) is a terrible comparison. He is basically trying to create a narrative them someone is born with religious beliefs which is absurd.

    Also, the crying of persecution is equally absurd. The church has not been discriminated against in modern times. In contrast, in the lifetime of most people in this board the LDS has discriminated against people based on race. The LDS church is currently discriminating against people based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

    The church fiercely fought against homosexuals having the right to marry. They have advocated for discrimination. When they lose the battle, they turn around and ask to be given the same protections as historically discriminated classes. Yeah, I do see many problems with what Clayton is arguing.
    wait, if i'm born as a boy, but I identify as a girl at what point is it a choice or not a choice?
    I'm like LeBron James.
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  15. #2955

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    The various groups he identifies may or may not be something someone is born with. Gender fluidity anyone? And yet the effort to elevate protections for these groups/identities places them above other similarly chosen identities. If you are going to allow people to claim protected status based on how they feel about generd or sexuality, whether it be from birth or more recently, then you should also allow religion to be among those protected states, particularly where the constitution already expressly guarantees the practice of religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    wait, if i'm born as a boy, but I identify as a girl at what point is it a choice or not a choice?
    Okay, let's go ahead and just remove gender identity out of the mix. We should all be able to agree that sexuality isn't a decision. Race isn't a decision. Religion is a decision.

    Also, in our country Christians have not historically been discriminated against. There is a long history of discrimination based on race and sexuality, including by the LDS church. So, comparing someone choosing a religion to sexuality and race is a bad analogy and it rings hollow coming from a organization that has discriminated on the basis of race and sexuality. I don't see anyone trying to prohibit someone form marrying because he or she chooses to be Mormon.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  16. #2956

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    Also, good points that there is already protections in the constitution specifically designed to protect religious freedom. In short, there is no need for additional protections being granted and frankly the protections already in place are not being infringed on and there isn't a historical pattern of infringement. The same cannot be said of the groups that Clayton compared religion to.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  17. #2957

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    Also, here is a good thing Mormons are in the news for. Good call acknowledging the existence of these relationships.
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...e-feature.html
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  18. #2958
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Okay, let's go ahead and just remove gender identity out of the mix. We should all be able to agree that sexuality isn't a decision. Race isn't a decision. Religion is a decision.

    Also, in our country Christians have not historically been discriminated against. There is a long history of discrimination based on race and sexuality, including by the LDS church. So, comparing someone choosing a religion to sexuality and race is a bad analogy and it rings hollow coming from a organization that has discriminated on the basis of race and sexuality. I don't see anyone trying to prohibit someone form marrying because he or she chooses to be Mormon.
    Are you willing to remove gender identity from the mix? Really? I don't think the LGBTQ community would support that approach. And are you suggesting that someone is locked into sexual identity from the moment they are born? Is your position, then, that the LDS church, having made decisions that you find to be racist and sexist, is now prohibited from ever articulating arguments supporting its own concerns about avoiding discrimination?

    As I am sure you realize, the article is trying to set forth a rationale to make sure that religion is as protected as gender identity. It's fine to implement laws and regulations prohibiting discrimination on those grounds, but they cannot be at the expense of similarly meaningful and impactful life choices, such as religions. What's wrong with that thought?
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  19. #2959
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Also, good points that there is already protections in the constitution specifically designed to protect religious freedom. In short, there is no need for additional protections being granted and frankly the protections already in place are not being infringed on and there isn't a historical pattern of infringement. The same cannot be said of the groups that Clayton compared religion to.
    The constitution guarantees the freedom to practice the religion, but it does not always say what that means or how it functions, as a cake baker in colorado discovered.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  20. #2960

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Are you willing to remove gender identity from the mix? Really? I don't think the LGBTQ community would support that approach. And are you suggesting that someone is locked into sexual identity from the moment they are born? Is your position, then, that the LDS church, having made decisions that you find to be racist and sexist, is now prohibited from ever articulating arguments supporting its own concerns about avoiding discrimination?

    As I am sure you realize, the article is trying to set forth a rationale to make sure that religion is as protected as gender identity. It's fine to implement laws and regulations prohibiting discrimination on those grounds, but they cannot be at the expense of similarly meaningful and impactful life choices, such as religions. What's wrong with that thought?
    I'm not willing to remove gender identity from the mix, but I don't want to get into that discussion right now. I can point out the problems with the statement by just talking about race and sexuality.

    Sure the LDS church can address their concerns, just don't compare yourself to a group that you are actively discriminating against and were high profile in trying to deny rights to.
    Last edited by MartyFunkhouser; 06-21-2018 at 10:10 AM.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  21. #2961
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Funk, are you just virtue signaling here, or do you genuinely believe that freedom of religion is not a right that should be protected?

    Do you feel similarly about freedom of speech?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  22. #2962

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Funk, are you just virtue signaling here, or do you genuinely believe that freedom of religion is not a right that should be protected?

    Do you feel similarly about freedom of speech?
    Of course I'm not just virtue signaling here. I genuinely believe that freedom of religion is a right and should be protected. It also isn't be infringed on in any appreciable way. It is already codified and protected in the United States constitution.

    I feel similarly about freedom of speech as well.

    If you can't see a problem saying religion deserves the same protections as race and sexual orientation (especially when you are a representative of an organization that is currently engaging in discrimination against one of these groups), I don't know what to say. The protections are different.

    "If you believe public and private institutions should credit the dignitary claims of racial, ethnic, gender and sexual minorities, then please consider that many of the same reasons for doing so apply with equal or greater force to the dignitary claims of religious believers. If you believe that taking constitutional and human rights seriously requires social respect and legal safeguards for people to live out their core identities openly as equal participants in our communities and nation, then I hope that same conviction also extends to religious people and their core beliefs."
    So he is not even just advocating for equal protection, he is advocating for potentially greater protection. In fact, the approach he takes would say, allow a clerk exercising her job duties to refuse to give a marriage license to homosexuals that are seeking to marry.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  23. #2963
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Also, here is a good thing Mormons are in the news for. Good call acknowledging the existence of these relationships.
    https://www.deseretnews.com/article/...e-feature.html
    That’s awesome. I think there will be a lot of movement in the next 20 years for the church. Far too slow for some, far too much or too fast for others.
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  24. #2964
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post

    So he is not even just advocating for equal protection, he is advocating for potentially greater protection. In fact, the approach he takes would say, allow a clerk exercising her job duties to refuse to give a marriage license to homosexuals that are seeking to marry.
    You're simply wrong here. He never argues for greater protections in the quotation. He says the bases for protection apply with equal or greater force to religion (which was my point above) but he never says there must be greater protection. The fact is that some of these protected statuses will come into conflict. His point is that religion deserves as much respect as gender or sexuality. The fact that YOU equate the LDS church's doctrine/policy to discrimination does not mean that it constitutes an illegal discrimination and, if anything, underscores the importance of the analytical starting point that he is urging. But you know all this. It seems lijke you might just be looking for another chance to complain about the church.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  25. #2965

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    You're simply wrong here. He never argues for greater protections in the quotation. He says the bases for protection apply with equal or greater force to religion (which was my point above) but he never says there must be greater protection. The fact is that some of these protected statuses will come into conflict. His point is that religion deserves as much respect as gender or sexuality. The fact that YOU equate the LDS church's doctrine/policy to discrimination does not mean that it constitutes an illegal discrimination and, if anything, underscores the importance of the analytical starting point that he is urging. But you know all this. It seems lijke you might just be looking for another chance to complain about the church.
    The LDS church does discriminate against homosexuals (i.e. refusing to allow their children to be baptized). It isn't illegal discrimination, because they are allowed to discriminate in their religious practice because of constitutional protections that are already in place.

    I am criticizing the church for its constant boogeyman of freedom of religion being under attack in this country. It isn't happening. Come talk to me when people start organizing campaigns and donations for constitutional amendments and laws that prevent people who believe in Christ from marrying, legislation that allows for an employer to deny someone a job because of their religion, etc.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  26. #2966
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    The LDS church does discriminate against homosexuals (i.e. refusing to allow their children to be baptized). It isn't illegal discrimination, because they are allowed to discriminate in their religious practice because of constitutional protections that are already in place.

    I am criticizing the church for its constant boogeyman of freedom of religion being under attack in this country. It isn't happening. Come talk to me when people start organizing campaigns and donations for constitutional amendments and laws that prevent people who believe in Christ from marrying, legislation that allows for an employer to deny someone a job because of their religion, etc.
    It's not a bogeyman, as you put it. Your very posts in this thread demonstrate the risk. You may not LIKE the article, but you have yet to identify any fault in its reasoning. Instead, you prefer to complain about the church.
    Last edited by creekster; 06-21-2018 at 12:02 PM.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    The LDS church does discriminate against homosexuals (i.e. refusing to allow their children to be baptized). It isn't illegal discrimination, because they are allowed to discriminate in their religious practice because of constitutional protections that are already in place.

    I am criticizing the church for its constant boogeyman of freedom of religion being under attack in this country. It isn't happening. Come talk to me when people start organizing campaigns and donations for constitutional amendments and laws that prevent people who believe in Christ from marrying, legislation that allows for an employer to deny someone a job because of their religion, etc.
    One man's discrimination is another man's good deed.

    Personally, I think the church thought long and hard about the decision and decided to go with what was best for long term spiritual welfare of the children. I may not agree with the church on this issue myself, but I don't think any such decision was made from hate, I think it was made from a genuine love and concern for the children of such. If you choose to be cynical and an evil conspirator band-wagoner... that's on you.

    As for me and my house... we will serve The Lord.

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  28. #2968

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    It's not a bogeyman, as you put it. Your very posts in this thread demonstrate the risk. You may ot LIKE the article, but you have yet to identify any fault in its reasoning. Insterad, you prefer to complain about the church.
    Give me a real world example that has occurred within the past 10 years (not a hypothetical), of religious freedom being infringed upon that is comparable to the actual discrimination that occurred (which was supported by the LDS church) of denying homosexuals the right to marry.

    The flaw in his logic is that he is comparing choices to things that people don't have a choice about. Homosexuality is not a choice. Race is not a choice. I don't think gender identity is a choice, but we could at least have a discussion about that one. Religion is a choice.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

    He who drinks beer sleeps well. He who sleeps well cannot sin. He who does not sin goes to heaven. The logic is impeccable.
    --Charles W. Bamforth, Ph.D.

  29. #2969
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MartyFunkhouser View Post
    Give me a real world example that has occurred within the past 10 years (not a hypothetical), of religious freedom being infringed upon that is comparable to the actual discrimination that occurred (which was supported by the LDS church) of denying homosexuals the right to marry.

    The flaw in his logic is that he is comparing choices to things that people don't have a choice about. Homosexuality is not a choice. Race is not a choice. I don't think gender identity is a choice, but we could at least have a discussion about that one. Religion is a choice.
    ,

    That is not the flaw in his argument and you know it. You are attacking a straw man you constructed by backing out the gender fluidity (and other similar issues) from the discussion. You conceded above they are part of the discussion but you just "don't want to get into that discussion right now." It's your right not to get into it, but by ignoring that important aspect of it (which wholly erases your line in the sand) you can not legitimately compare non-choice issues (which the LGBTQ community do not think are always and unequivocally non-choice based) to choice issues. He frames it as a matter of IDENTITY, which is the same way LGBTQ advocates typically frame it, whether or not it is a conscious choice.

    Your position would make us first determine if there is a genetic basis for gender identity in order to accord standing. That would not be workable and is not consonant with either the law or the current conclusions on gender issues.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  30. #2970
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    It's not a bogeyman, as you put it. Your very posts in this thread demonstrate the risk. You may not LIKE the article, but you have yet to identify any fault in its reasoning. Instead, you prefer to complain about the church.
    Agreed that its not a bogeyman. Defending religious liberty is important even if religious rights for Christians aren’t currently being trampled on. I wonder if funk would be fine with repealing the voting rights act since blacks now face little obstacle in voting in the south.

    And to flat out state that religions aren’t being discriminated against is to deny history, specifically Mormon history. Mormons have been discriminated against in the past. It’s important to make sure it never happens again.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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