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Thread: Mormons in the News

  1. #2371
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    Kelly has seemingly assumed the responsibility of showing all who are troubled by her excommunication that their concerns are ill-founded. Maybe there didn't have to be winners and losers in that battle, but there are, and it's not hard to pick them out.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  2. #2372
    Senior Member originalsocal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    She's still the ward gossip

    Now that is funny!

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  3. #2373

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBlue View Post
    If you want to protect his privacy it's probably best just to say "we won't be issuing comment on why". When you qualify it with "...but it wasn't apostasy" you've probably said too much.
    This seemed like a strange detail to include.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    This seemed like a strange detail to include.
    Which is better, to have a fling with another woman? Or have a fling with church history?
    I think it necessary so people don't immediately discard everything he did as part of his ministry. We can see from those reacting to his excommunication that he did touch some lives and do some good. If he was excommunicated for apostasy, then every talk, sermon, or private counsel he gave would be affixed with an asterisk and disregarded. That's kind of going to happen anyway, I suppose, but this might preserve something that would otherwise be lost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    I think it necessary so people don't immediately discard everything he did as part of his ministry. We can see from those reacting to his excommunication that he did touch some lives and do some good. If he was excommunicated for apostasy, then every talk, sermon, or private counsel he gave would be affixed with an asterisk and disregarded. That's kind of going to happen anyway, I suppose, but this might preserve something that would otherwise be lost.
    And it wouldn't if he was cheating, embezzling, or worse (Elder Lee) ?
    I guess it serves to rank things. Some things are worse than others. And there is something worse than cheating on your wife.
    I get that. I can see that in an ultra 'church comes first' mentality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    And it wouldn't if he was cheating, embezzling, or worse (Elder Lee) ?
    I guess it serves to rank things. Some things are worse than others. And there is something worse than cheating on your wife.
    I get that. I can see that in an ultra 'church comes first' mentality.
    I don't believe in ranking sins. I wasn't suggesting or implying anything of the sort. But I do see a significant distinction in kind that affects how one might react to his excommunication.

    Imagine you were someone he helped through a personal trial by teaching you some principal of the gospel. Had he been excommunicated for apostasy, you may well wonder what if anything he said was truly in line with the teachings of the church, and whether you should believe any of it. With this clarification, you might understand he was excommunicated not for teaching contrary to church doctrine but for failure to live it.
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    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Could it be that he requested that it be announced this way?


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  8. #2378

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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    I don't believe in ranking sins. I wasn't suggesting or implying anything of the sort. But I do see a significant distinction in kind that affects how one might react to his excommunication.

    Imagine you were someone he helped through a personal trial by teaching you some principal of the gospel. Had he been excommunicated for apostasy, you may well wonder what if anything he said was truly in line with the teachings of the church, and whether you should believe any of it. With this clarification, you might understand he was excommunicated not for teaching contrary to church doctrine but for failure to live it.
    Good points.
    I don't like ranking them either, but I would put victimless sins (apostasy) below a victim sin (cheating, abuse,etc)

    However counsel from a cheater would make me wonder
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  9. #2379

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Could it be that he requested that it be announced this way?


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    Kind of my point.
    The emphasis of "At least I didn't do THAT" says something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Kelly has seemingly assumed the responsibility of showing all who are troubled by her excommunication that their concerns are ill-founded. Maybe there didn't have to be winners and losers in that battle, but there are, and it's not hard to pick them out.
    I disagree. It's entirely possible to think she is immature, uncivil, unmindful, a terrible author, a horrible figurehead, and perhaps unwell, and still think that excommunication in absentia was unjust. I don't voice an opinion on her excommunication anymore because I don't know the details of her excommunication, and her behavior since then lets me know that she isn't a sympathetic person and that she has tried to use her experience to benefit herself financially (though she's no Dehlin). That said, if someone's treatment is unjust, it shouldn't matter what we think of the person. Justice should not be a respecter of persons.
    Last edited by wuapinmon; 08-13-2017 at 07:34 PM.
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    Am I the only one that likes to rank sins?


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  12. #2382

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Am I the only one that likes to rank sins?


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    Maybe not in order of severity/seriousness, but I might think about which are more enjoyable (or at least would be ).
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    Letter from the Church: Sister Kelly, you are loved and we hope you return to the fellowship of the Saints.

    The Bloggernacle: Kate, you're a greedy, insincere, nasty woman with a bad haircut. Good riddance.
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

  14. #2384
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I disagree. It's entirely possible to think she is immature, uncivil, unmindful, a terrible author, a horrible figurehead, and perhaps unwell, and still think that excommunication in absentia was unjust. I don't voice an opinion on her excommunication anymore because I don't know the details of her excommunication, and her behavior sense then lets me know that she isn't a sympathetic person and that she has tried to use her experience to benefit herself financially (though she's no Dehlin). That said, if someone's treatment is unjust, it shouldn't matter what we think of the person. Justice should not be a respecter of persons.
    In absentia? Please. She was all but standing outside the door.
    Last edited by All-American; 08-13-2017 at 03:20 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian View Post
    Kind of my point.
    The emphasis of "At least I didn't do THAT" says something.

    The church isn't crying itself to sleep every night.
    Meh. I think you are making it into a bigger issue than it warrants. AA's explanation sounds plausible. One can differentiate circumstances surrounding sins without ranking them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I disagree. It's entirely possible to think she is immature, uncivil, unmindful, a terrible author, a horrible figurehead, and perhaps unwell, and still think that excommunication in absentia was unjust. I don't voice an opinion on her excommunication anymore because I don't know the details of her excommunication, and her behavior sense then lets me know that she isn't a sympathetic person and that she has tried to use her experience to benefit herself financially (though she's no Dehlin). That said, if someone's treatment is unjust, it shouldn't matter what we think of the person. Justice should not be a respecter of persons.
    I understand the point you are making and I agree in general.

    I recall watching the Ordain Women movement grow and admiring the cause, but scratching my head on the tactics. Then the tactics got more and more bizarre. It seemed like whoever was leading the charge and charting course was exercising incredibly poor judgment. Now with the benefit of hindsight, it makes more sense. KK is a nut.

    One could argue that her vitriol is a consequence of the excommunication. But what would have been the outcome had she not been exed? Given the trajectory she was on and the nature of the personalities involved, most likely it would have been a train wreck either way.

    The sad thing is that she has probably set the women ordination issue back a few decades. People like to claim, "Well-behaved women seldom change history." That is true, but nutty women with poor judgment also seldom change history.
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  17. #2387
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    A Wife with a Purpose was scheduled to speak in Charleston, but her security detail held her out of her speaking engagement. She is going to now do appropriate action for the White Supremacy movement through things like picnics. She will leave speaking to the men.

    https://wifewithapurpose.com/2017/08...the-alt-right/
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  18. #2388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I understand the point you are making and I agree in general.

    I recall watching the Ordain Women movement grow and admiring the cause, but scratching my head on the tactics. Then the tactics got more and more bizarre. It seemed like whoever was leading the charge and charting course was exercising incredibly poor judgment. Now with the benefit of hindsight, it makes more sense. KK is a nut.

    One could argue that her vitriol is a consequence of the excommunication. But what would have been the outcome had she not been exed? Given the trajectory she was on and the nature of the personalities involved, most likely it would have been a train wreck either way.

    The sad thing is that she has probably set the women ordination issue back a few decades. People like to claim, "Well-behaved women seldom change history." That is true, but nutty women with poor judgment also seldom change history.
    While I agree that KK was a terrible leader and did damage, I'm not so sure how she has really set back anything. It wasn't changing either way.

    I do think the first Priesthood action was a good idea. It was a way to force the issue to be discussed. The second Priesthood action was stupid. The "discussions" could have been a good idea, but they made some huge mistakes in those and I think that is when it became clear that Kate Kelly was a poor leader.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

  19. #2389
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    While I agree that KK was a terrible leader and did damage, I'm not so sure how she has really set back anything. It wasn't changing either way.

    I do think the first Priesthood action was a good idea. It was a way to force the issue to be discussed. The second Priesthood action was stupid. The "discussions" could have been a good idea, but they made some huge mistakes in those and I think that is when it became clear that Kate Kelly was a poor leader.
    At its core feminism is about what any community can do better for women. True religion, at its core, is what an individual can do for others and in the case of organized religion- the religious community. In the long term, at least long as defined as the start of Sister Kate's movement until today, it appears to me that Kate Kelly is likely being exposed for being mostly about Kate Kelly.

    I will say that I did laugh out loud when I read all the bios on the womenfolk clamoring for the power to act in the name of God - "I am a Bishop (because it is important that you know my calling so that my social opinions can have the aura of the Almighty's mutual approbation) and how my heart ached that my wife couldn't be in the circles when I gave my children a blessing and a name by which to be known on the records of the church...." That shit read like Utefans.net back in the day when the ALUFs had to qualify their activity levels, and often their current calling, before opining on the BYU being a threat to the Kingdom of God.

    I do think that if part of Kate Kelly's goal was to have any influence on the collective perspectives of believing mormons she did the cause damage. But as you indicated she did no damage to her goals - to which I agree. Her goals were her own self-promotion. She is a self-absorbed unhinged lady.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    While I agree that KK was a terrible leader and did damage, I'm not so sure how she has really set back anything. It wasn't changing either way.

    I do think the first Priesthood action was a good idea. It was a way to force the issue to be discussed. The second Priesthood action was stupid. The "discussions" could have been a good idea, but they made some huge mistakes in those and I think that is when it became clear that Kate Kelly was a poor leader.
    As Steve Spurrier likes to say..."Hindsight is 50/50," but man were there so many missteps along the way. The problem that KK had is that it very quickly became about her...and it didn't seem like she was the face of a movement, she was the face of the KK show. It's impossible to know for sure, but certainly her ratcheting up her rhetoric, vitriol, etc., certainly couldn't help.

    I've been told that the leaders of the movement had studied previous social movements before, read from Dr. King and others and really felt like they needed to take and make a big stand. Now, that may or may not be true, but when you have people at the top of your organization that have no interest or desire to truly obtain what you want to obtain (the priesthood) they have no real dog in the fight. As such, whatever action that is taken by the group impacts them very, very little if at all. Listening to those voices, IMO, was a mistake.

    The first thing was let women pray, which pretty much rolled through with very little resistance, so it seems. What if the next item would've been to increase women's roles at the ward level? (i.e. do away with PEC - which the RS President can be a part of anyway -per the handbook). Seems to me that that would've been a much more reasonable, and attainable end, and, would've had a real impact at the local level and the week to week experience for many...which in many ways, as I see it based on blog posts etc. about how painful church can be, might have been better than a big show of force.

    My 2 cents.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    when I gave my children a blessing and a name by which to be known on the records of the church....
    I think I did it wrong!

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    The church has updated its statement about Charlottesville: http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/articl...ville-virginia

    It has been called to our attention that there are some among the various pro-white and white supremacy communities who assert that the Church is neutral toward or in support of their views. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the New Testament, Jesus said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:37-39). The Book of Mormon teaches “all are alike unto God” (2 Nephi 26:33).

    White supremacist attitudes are morally wrong and sinful, and we condemn them. Church members who promote or pursue a “white culture” or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.
    "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

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    I'll give credit where credit is due

    http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/articl...ville-virginia

    It has been called to our attention that there are some among the various pro-white and white supremacy communities who assert that the Church is neutral toward or in support of their views. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the New Testament, Jesus said, “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Matthew 22:37-39). The Book of Mormon teaches “all are alike unto God” (2 Nephi 26:33).

    White supremacist attitudes are morally wrong and sinful, and we condemn them. Church members who promote or pursue a “white culture” or white supremacy agenda are not in harmony with the teachings of the Church.
    I could be wrong, but I think this is a direct shot A Wife with a Purpose. From a PR perspective, I wouldn't be surprised if she continues her "white culture" rhetoric if she isn't called in for her own court of love.

    Good move by the LDS church.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    I'll give credit where credit is due

    http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/articl...ville-virginia



    I could be wrong, but I think this is a direct shot A Wife with a Purpose. From a PR perspective, I wouldn't be surprised if she continues her "white culture" rhetoric if she isn't called in for her own court of love.

    Good move by the LDS church.
    Is she blogging? Soon she will be starring on White Knights of Charlottesville on KKK network.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topper View Post
    Is she blogging? Soon she will be starring on White Knights of Charlottesville on KKK network.
    She's taking shots at the church right now on her Twitter feed. We should start a pool on whether she resigns or is exed and by what date.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    She's taking shots at the church right now on her Twitter feed. We should start a pool on whether she resigns or is exed and by what date.
    Not the first time that she has done this. She did the same thing when the LDS church said to help refugees and made horrible comments such as the refugees are people too and we should love them.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    Not the first time that she has done this. She did the same thing when the LDS church said to help refugees and made horrible comments such as the refugees are people too and we should love them.
    How quickly does Dehlin go for the interview here? She seems more in the Denver Snuffer camp...
    "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    How quickly does Dehlin go for the interview here? She seems more in the Denver Snuffer camp...
    I don't think that Dehlin will touch this one. I'm not sure that a homosexual hating white supremacist is going to appeal to his base, even if she does gain a hatred for the church.
    The crux of what has traumatized us about CUF/CG is that we thought they were our friends. And their identity as BYU fans turned out to be the most important thing to them. What empty lives! What a damning indictment of the LDS Church!
    --SeattleUte

  29. #2399
    Trump-hating snowflake Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Poor lady:

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    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpfunk View Post
    I don't think that Dehlin will touch this one. I'm not sure that a homosexual hating white supremacist is going to appeal to his base, even if she does gain a hatred for the church.
    It would be quite a conversation though...who is the dimmest bulb...the audience will get to decide after 4 hours.
    "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

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