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Thread: Is it OK to kill cyclists?

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    Semper infra dignitatem PaloAltoCougar's Avatar
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    Default Is it OK to kill cyclists?

    While the answer is no (not most of the time, anyway), this NY Times opinion piece comments on how cyclist-killing drivers are treated perhaps too leniently. I'll use this thread to mention the occasional, and one hopes very infrequent, instances locally where cyclists get hit by cars, along with the legal and medical consequences. At the moment, we're waiting on a trial for an 18-year-old who was speeding out of control on a street next to us, killing a woman about Mrs. PAC's age and injuring her husband (I had mentioned this in a different thread a few months ago right after it happened).

    If nothing else, these incidents remind me to take extra care while riding, and driving, and to look out a bit more for the other guy.

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    I was expecting this to be a poll.
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    I lost a good friend back in 2007. I think texting may have been involved, but I'm not sure that was ever run to the ground. Where she also worked in the Gunnison prison, I don't think they wanted to hang her out to dry. She was actually the daughter of one of the men in my military unit as well.

    http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1149135

    A prison corrections worker was hit and killed while riding his bike in central Utah. It happened yesterday on U.S. 89 near Sterling.

    Utah Highway Patrol says 33-year-old Terrence W. Bigelow was riding his bike when a van drifted off the side of the road and hit him. Troopers say Bigelow was killed instantly.

    The driver of the van --- a 29-year-old woman --- was taken to Gunnison Valley Hospital.

    So far, no citations have been given. However, UHP says the accident remains under investigation.

    Read more at http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1149...LDWDoAUJ68w.99

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    While the answer is no (not most of the time, anyway), this NY Times opinion piece comments on how cyclist-killing drivers are treated perhaps too leniently. I'll use this thread to mention the occasional, and one hopes very infrequent, instances locally where cyclists get hit by cars, along with the legal and medical consequences. At the moment, we're waiting on a trial for an 18-year-old who was speeding out of control on a street next to us, killing a woman about Mrs. PAC's age and injuring her husband (I had mentioned this in a different thread a few months ago right after it happened).

    If nothing else, these incidents remind me to take extra care while riding, and driving, and to look out a bit more for the other guy.
    That is a pretty good article. I especially agree with the last paragraph...
    So here’s my proposal: Every time you get on a bike, from this moment forward, obey the letter of the law in every traffic exchange everywhere to help drivers (and police officers) view cyclists as predictable users of the road who deserve respect. And every time you get behind the wheel, remember that even the slightest inattention can maim or kill a human being enjoying a legitimate form of transportation. That alone will make the streets a little safer, although for now I’m sticking to the basement and maybe the occasional country road.
    I'm sticking to my stationary bike for now as well. I found it extremely hard to bike outdoors while watching TED videos and the news anyway.
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    Members Only Dwight Schr-ute's Avatar
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    A couple of stories out of Salt Lake from the last few weeks. Both riders hit head on from cars crossing a full lane of traffic. Awful.

    http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/273...obile_direct=y

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148...&comments=true


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    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-ute View Post
    A couple of stories out of Salt Lake from the last few weeks. Both riders hit head on from cars crossing a full lane of traffic. Awful.

    http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/273...obile_direct=y

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148...&comments=true


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    I was thinking about this recently as I ride around the Utah canyons frequently. I started thinking about whether the issue was with cycling per se but I don't really think it is. I concluded that in these specific canyon accidents it wouldn't matter if the victim was cycling, walking, jogging, riding a horse, riding a motorcycle or ATV, or possibly even riding in a car. Whenever someone crosses across the opposite lane of traffic while coming down the canyon, there isn't much the victim can do...

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    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    I was thinking about this recently as I ride around the Utah canyons frequently. I started thinking about whether the issue was with cycling per se but I don't really think it is. I concluded that in these specific canyon accidents it wouldn't matter if the victim was cycling, walking, jogging, riding a horse, riding a motorcycle or ATV, or possibly even riding in a car. Whenever someone crosses across the opposite lane of traffic while coming down the canyon, there isn't much the victim can do...
    No, I think the main issue is visibility. A car is much more visible than a pedestrian, horse, bike, or motorcycle. That's the issue -- getting the attention of the other driver so he can avoid hitting you, not to mention the significant protection provided by the car itself: airbags, seatbelt, etc. during an accident.

    True that another driver crossing the midline in a canyon is a very bad thing, but I would like my chances for avoiding or surviving the subsequent accident much better being in a car than not in a car.

    Biking or running on roads alongside cars is just a dangerous activity. Riding a motorcycle is a dangerous activity. You're putting your life in the hands of thousands and thousands of cars around you -- asking them to do the right thing. Of course we all do that every day in a car on the road, but what ends up just as a minor fender bender (that almost everybody has been in) when you're in a car turns into a fatality when you're not in a car.

    Almost every day it seems like I see somebody drifting out of their lane while texting. Glad I'm always in a car myself when I see that and I'm totally in favor of hefty fines for anybody who texts and drives and for significant jail time for texters who cause an accident.

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    Known Heterosexual RC Vikings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-ute View Post
    A couple of stories out of Salt Lake from the last few weeks. Both riders hit head on from cars crossing a full lane of traffic. Awful.

    http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/273...obile_direct=y

    http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148...&comments=true


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    Over on CB someone will post an article where a cyclist got hit and killed and without a doubt their will be a couple of people that will point out that they see cyclist run stop signs all the time so they probably deserved to be hit. These cyclist that fly through the stop signs give every cyclist a bad name and make it a little more dangerous for everybody else because some people get more aggressive around cyclist. I'm always amazed at drivers that won't slow down and let the car coming the opposite direction pass so that we are not three wide on the road. They must feel my life is not worth the extra 10-15 seconds it would take to get to their final destination.

    Almost every death I've ever heard of the cyclist was following the rules of the road and a careless, drunk or texting driver hit them and they do seem to get off to easily.
    Last edited by RC Vikings; 11-14-2013 at 08:04 AM.

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    Last week, I treated a good friend and riding partner for a concussion, a few broken ribs, a pneumothorax, and a pulmonary contusion that he sustained while riding. This just after hearing about Solon's friend who was killed riding the week before. So as I got out on my bike yesterday for the first time since my surgery, I was pretty shaky. I finished (stationary bike fitness does not equal cycling fitness!), and when I got home, I did some googling. So for SU (who probably won't see this, but oh well):
    http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/...ransportation/
    Under even the most pessimistic of assumptions:
    Net effect of driving a car at 65mph for one hour: Dying 20 minutes sooner. (18 seconds of life lost per mile)
    Net effect of riding a bike at 12mph for one hour: Living 2 hours and 36 minutes longer (about 13 minutes of life gained per mile)
    But really, as every runner or cyclist knows, it's not about extending life, it's about getting more out of the life you have.
    Last edited by ERCougar; 03-26-2014 at 07:05 AM.
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    Semper infra dignitatem PaloAltoCougar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    Last week, I treated a good friend and riding partner for a concussion, a few broken ribs, a pneumothorax, and a pulmonary contusion that he sustained while riding. This just after hearing about Solon's friend who was killed riding the week before. So as I got out on my bike yesterday for the first time since my surgery, I was pretty shaky. I finished (stationary bike fitness does not equal cycling fitness!), and when I got home, I did some googling. So for SU (who probably won't see this, but oh well):
    http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/...ransportation/


    But really, as every runner or cyclist knows, it's not about extending life, it's about getting more out of the life you have.
    That was interesting and comforting; I want to believe the overall conclusion, but I'd like to hear more on the subject. Given the deaths I've read of around here (including the couple our age that was hit by a teenage driver, killing the wife, within a short walk of our home), I'm very concerned about the risk of getting hit, but the benefits seem to far outweigh the risks so we keep riding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    That was interesting and comforting; I want to believe the overall conclusion, but I'd like to hear more on the subject. Given the deaths I've read of around here (including the couple our age that was hit by a teenage driver, killing the wife, within a short walk of our home), I'm very concerned about the risk of getting hit, but the benefits seem to far outweigh the risks so we keep riding.
    Yeah, he makes a few questionable assumptions in his calculations, but I'm not really sure it would affect the conclusion too much. I think there are at least a few reasons it seems counterintuitive. First, the benefit from cycling comes from longer life, which we don't directly observe. Second, you feel more vulnerable in a bike, so it seems more dangerous, for much the same reason that flying seems more dangerous than driving. Third, the stories we all hear and remember are notable for a reason.

    He makes the point (although he doesn't factor it in to the calculation) that the cycling death rate is disproportionately high for most of us because it includes a lot of children with no driver training, homeless people, and DUI offenders with suspended licenses. From a medical and anecdotal perspective, every really bad cycling accident victim that I can remember seeing in the ER has been drunk (I'm not counting my friend because while I wouldn't have wanted his injuries, there was really no doubt he was going to survive and recover completely). Also, I can think of a lot more horrendous car accident injuries than I can cycling ones, although obviously far more people spend far more hours in cars.
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    Senior Member byu71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Vikings View Post
    Over on CB someone will post an article where a cyclist got hit and killed and without a doubt their will be a couple of people that will point out that they see cyclist run stop signs all the time so they probably deserved to be hit. These cyclist that fly through the stop signs give every cyclist a bad name and make it a little more dangerous for everybody else because some people get more aggressive around cyclist. I'm always amazed at drivers that won't slow down and let the car coming the opposite direction pass so that we are not three wide on the road. They must feel my life is not worth the extra 10-15 seconds it would take to get to their final destination.

    Almost every death I've ever heard of the cyclist was following the rules of the road and a careless, drunk or texting driver hit them and they do seem to get off to easily.
    Just yesterday coming South from South Temple on State Street a cyclist came along weaving in and out of traffic. His move in front of me was especially dangerous since my reflexes aren't what they used to be, but I did manage to slam on the brakes in time.

    However, I guess that is why I don't post on CB anymore because I had no thoughts the guy deserves to get killed. Just maybe a broken leg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    That was interesting and comforting; I want to believe the overall conclusion, but I'd like to hear more on the subject. Given the deaths I've read of around here (including the couple our age that was hit by a teenage driver, killing the wife, within a short walk of our home), I'm very concerned about the risk of getting hit, but the benefits seem to far outweigh the risks so we keep riding.
    Doing a quick search I found this as part of an article that is loaded with data...

    FatalityRate.jpg
    http://www.bellboycott.com/cached/ww...alth/risks.htm

    It seems bicycling is actually very safe but not as near as safe as running around with a loaded gun.
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    Senior Member byu71's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Doing a quick search I found this as part of an article that is loaded with data...

    FatalityRate.jpg
    http://www.bellboycott.com/cached/ww...alth/risks.htm

    It seems bicycling is actually very safe but not as near as safe as running around with a loaded gun.

    Figures have to be for U.S. citizens. Based on the numbers life expectency (sp) is around 72 years. I would have thought Airline Flying would have been even better if only counting U.S. citizens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Doing a quick search I found this as part of an article that is loaded with data...

    FatalityRate.jpg
    http://www.bellboycott.com/cached/ww...alth/risks.htm

    It seems bicycling is actually very safe but not as near as safe as running around with a loaded gun.
    And I would guess that a majority of those deaths are caused by something other than the loaded gun. Hypothermia, heat stroke, heart attacks, falls, etc.

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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    And I would guess that a majority of those deaths are caused by something other than the loaded gun. Hypothermia, heat stroke, heart attacks, falls, etc.
    The same thinking applies to cycling. If you back out all the times the cyclist was killed by a vehicle, the death rate becomes virtually nil.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    The same thinking applies to cycling. If you back out all the times the cyclist was killed by a vehicle, the death rate becomes virtually nil.
    That makes sense as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    This just after hearing about Solon's friend who was killed riding the week before.
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...-accident.html

    John was a good friend of mine. Gut-wrenching funeral.

    Be safe, you idiots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...-accident.html

    John was a good friend of mine. Gut-wrenching funeral.

    Be safe, you idiots.
    That's horrible. I knew him at CEU and remember him being a very nice guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Doing a quick search I found this as part of an article that is loaded with data...

    FatalityRate.jpg
    http://www.bellboycott.com/cached/ww...alth/risks.htm

    It seems bicycling is actually very safe but not as near as safe as running around with a loaded gun.
    This is a great website, but the awful irony is that the author was killed on his bike in 2003 by a drunk driver.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Kifer

    Still, had he not been an avid cyclist, he may have been killed by a drunk driver, or not even made it to that point because of his heart attack.
    I guess the safest thing would be to ride a stationary bike in your basement, but where's the fun in that?

    You know what's unsafe? Daylight Savings Time.
    http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-...#axzz2xAqh9tnb

    Authorities suspect this played a role in the deaths in Lehi. I really can't understand why there isn't a larger outcry over this. I hate Daylight Savings Time and there is not a single justifiable reason for it (and plenty to get rid of it).
    Last edited by ERCougar; 03-27-2014 at 07:39 AM.
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    Senior Member dabrockster's Avatar
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    My group is getting ready to pick up our early morning Saturday rides. I think it helps to be in a group, but we also look to stay off roads etc. I tend to agree that individuals who kill a person on their bike do not get full punishment. I have seen roughly 3 to 4 individual just in the Columbus area killed on their bike.

    This was one of the more recent ones. Not only did she kill him and left him on the side of the road to die.. What did she get? 4 1/2 years.

    My Assistant Coach was taught by this man, and coached by him. He was pretty upset by the penalty this person received. On top of this. It was her father who alerted the police to this. He suspected she did this and turned her in. I cannot imagine what he was going through to turn over his daughter knowing what she did..


    http://www.dispatch.com/content/stor...-sentence.html

    Oh, and the maximum sentence here. 6 years..

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    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    I biked 20 miles last night in my neighboorhood, which has some roads with speed limits up to 40mph. I wonder if cycling at night is less dangerous as I have a bright headlight, bright taillight and wear reflective clothing. Cars seem to be more aware of me at night than the day. Granted I would never venture out on a busy road at night, even if it had a decent sized shoulder.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I hate Daylight Savings Time and there is not a single justifiable reason for it (and plenty to get rid of it).
    Preach on. I can't stand it.
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    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I hate Daylight Savings Time and there is not a single justifiable reason for it (and plenty to get rid of it).
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Public View Post
    Preach on. I can't stand it.
    Lots of people like to gripe about it, but there isn't much action.

    I looked at the Whitehouse petitions and there are a few but the one with the most signatures has only 5000. It needs 100,000 for a response.

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...-good/xlTjN8Pb

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    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    I like daylight savings time as it provides more light at night. In fact, I think it should be made permanent.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I like daylight savings time as it provides more light at night. In fact, I think it should be made permanent.
    I don't really care too much, as I get up early almost every day so I can use the light on either end of the work day. But I do wish they would quit changing it. Pick one and stick with it.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I like daylight savings time as it provides more light at night. In fact, I think it should be made permanent.
    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    I don't really care too much, as I get up early almost every day so I can use the light on either end of the work day. But I do wish they would quit changing it. Pick one and stick with it.
    I'm with creekster--mostly, stop changing it. That's where the problems arise.
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    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
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    For the record, I am pro Daylight Saving Time year-round.

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    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
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    I'm also very glad I didn't have to do double daylight savings like they tried in Newfoundland.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newfoun...dard_Time_Zone

    In 1988 the provincial government experimented with double daylight saving time, moving clocks ahead two hours during daylight saving time instead of just one. This move proved unpopular in the fall when children started going to school in the dark.
    As if they weren't messed up enough with the half hour timezone offset, they had to go and try this.

  30. #30
    Major disappointment The_Tick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solon View Post
    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...-accident.html

    John was a good friend of mine. Gut-wrenching funeral.

    Be safe, you idiots.
    John was my dads Brother in law. Small world.

    John's wife is the sister of my dad's wife.

    My granddaughter was born the evening of the accident. It was awkward calling my dad letting him know that my daughter was at the hospital in labor, as my dad is telling me that his BIL was killed in an accident.

    Death and a birth in the same day.

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