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Is it OK to kill cyclists?

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  • Is it OK to kill cyclists?

    While the answer is no (not most of the time, anyway), this NY Times opinion piece comments on how cyclist-killing drivers are treated perhaps too leniently. I'll use this thread to mention the occasional, and one hopes very infrequent, instances locally where cyclists get hit by cars, along with the legal and medical consequences. At the moment, we're waiting on a trial for an 18-year-old who was speeding out of control on a street next to us, killing a woman about Mrs. PAC's age and injuring her husband (I had mentioned this in a different thread a few months ago right after it happened).

    If nothing else, these incidents remind me to take extra care while riding, and driving, and to look out a bit more for the other guy.

  • #2
    I was expecting this to be a poll.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

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    • #3
      I lost a good friend back in 2007. I think texting may have been involved, but I'm not sure that was ever run to the ground. Where she also worked in the Gunnison prison, I don't think they wanted to hang her out to dry. She was actually the daughter of one of the men in my military unit as well.

      http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1149135

      A prison corrections worker was hit and killed while riding his bike in central Utah. It happened yesterday on U.S. 89 near Sterling.

      Utah Highway Patrol says 33-year-old Terrence W. Bigelow was riding his bike when a van drifted off the side of the road and hit him. Troopers say Bigelow was killed instantly.

      The driver of the van --- a 29-year-old woman --- was taken to Gunnison Valley Hospital.

      So far, no citations have been given. However, UHP says the accident remains under investigation.

      Read more at http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=1149...LDWDoAUJ68w.99

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      • #4
        Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
        While the answer is no (not most of the time, anyway), this NY Times opinion piece comments on how cyclist-killing drivers are treated perhaps too leniently. I'll use this thread to mention the occasional, and one hopes very infrequent, instances locally where cyclists get hit by cars, along with the legal and medical consequences. At the moment, we're waiting on a trial for an 18-year-old who was speeding out of control on a street next to us, killing a woman about Mrs. PAC's age and injuring her husband (I had mentioned this in a different thread a few months ago right after it happened).

        If nothing else, these incidents remind me to take extra care while riding, and driving, and to look out a bit more for the other guy.
        That is a pretty good article. I especially agree with the last paragraph...
        So here’s my proposal: Every time you get on a bike, from this moment forward, obey the letter of the law in every traffic exchange everywhere to help drivers (and police officers) view cyclists as predictable users of the road who deserve respect. And every time you get behind the wheel, remember that even the slightest inattention can maim or kill a human being enjoying a legitimate form of transportation. That alone will make the streets a little safer, although for now I’m sticking to the basement and maybe the occasional country road.
        I'm sticking to my stationary bike for now as well. I found it extremely hard to bike outdoors while watching TED videos and the news anyway.
        "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
        "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
        "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
        GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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        • #5
          A couple of stories out of Salt Lake from the last few weeks. Both riders hit head on from cars crossing a full lane of traffic. Awful.

          http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/273...obile_direct=y

          http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148...&comments=true


          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          I told him he was a goddamn Nazi Stormtrooper.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Dwight Schr-ute View Post
            A couple of stories out of Salt Lake from the last few weeks. Both riders hit head on from cars crossing a full lane of traffic. Awful.

            http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/273...obile_direct=y

            http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148...&comments=true


            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
            I was thinking about this recently as I ride around the Utah canyons frequently. I started thinking about whether the issue was with cycling per se but I don't really think it is. I concluded that in these specific canyon accidents it wouldn't matter if the victim was cycling, walking, jogging, riding a horse, riding a motorcycle or ATV, or possibly even riding in a car. Whenever someone crosses across the opposite lane of traffic while coming down the canyon, there isn't much the victim can do...

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            • #7
              Originally posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
              I was thinking about this recently as I ride around the Utah canyons frequently. I started thinking about whether the issue was with cycling per se but I don't really think it is. I concluded that in these specific canyon accidents it wouldn't matter if the victim was cycling, walking, jogging, riding a horse, riding a motorcycle or ATV, or possibly even riding in a car. Whenever someone crosses across the opposite lane of traffic while coming down the canyon, there isn't much the victim can do...
              No, I think the main issue is visibility. A car is much more visible than a pedestrian, horse, bike, or motorcycle. That's the issue -- getting the attention of the other driver so he can avoid hitting you, not to mention the significant protection provided by the car itself: airbags, seatbelt, etc. during an accident.

              True that another driver crossing the midline in a canyon is a very bad thing, but I would like my chances for avoiding or surviving the subsequent accident much better being in a car than not in a car.

              Biking or running on roads alongside cars is just a dangerous activity. Riding a motorcycle is a dangerous activity. You're putting your life in the hands of thousands and thousands of cars around you -- asking them to do the right thing. Of course we all do that every day in a car on the road, but what ends up just as a minor fender bender (that almost everybody has been in) when you're in a car turns into a fatality when you're not in a car.

              Almost every day it seems like I see somebody drifting out of their lane while texting. Glad I'm always in a car myself when I see that and I'm totally in favor of hefty fines for anybody who texts and drives and for significant jail time for texters who cause an accident.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dwight Schr-ute View Post
                A couple of stories out of Salt Lake from the last few weeks. Both riders hit head on from cars crossing a full lane of traffic. Awful.

                http://m.ksl.com/index/story/sid/273...obile_direct=y

                http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148...&comments=true


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                Over on CB someone will post an article where a cyclist got hit and killed and without a doubt their will be a couple of people that will point out that they see cyclist run stop signs all the time so they probably deserved to be hit. These cyclist that fly through the stop signs give every cyclist a bad name and make it a little more dangerous for everybody else because some people get more aggressive around cyclist. I'm always amazed at drivers that won't slow down and let the car coming the opposite direction pass so that we are not three wide on the road. They must feel my life is not worth the extra 10-15 seconds it would take to get to their final destination.

                Almost every death I've ever heard of the cyclist was following the rules of the road and a careless, drunk or texting driver hit them and they do seem to get off to easily.
                Last edited by RC Vikings; 11-14-2013, 07:04 AM.

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                • #9
                  Last week, I treated a good friend and riding partner for a concussion, a few broken ribs, a pneumothorax, and a pulmonary contusion that he sustained while riding. This just after hearing about Solon's friend who was killed riding the week before. So as I got out on my bike yesterday for the first time since my surgery, I was pretty shaky. I finished (stationary bike fitness does not equal cycling fitness!), and when I got home, I did some googling. So for SU (who probably won't see this, but oh well):
                  http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/...ransportation/
                  Under even the most pessimistic of assumptions:
                  Net effect of driving a car at 65mph for one hour: Dying 20 minutes sooner. (18 seconds of life lost per mile)
                  Net effect of riding a bike at 12mph for one hour: Living 2 hours and 36 minutes longer (about 13 minutes of life gained per mile)
                  But really, as every runner or cyclist knows, it's not about extending life, it's about getting more out of the life you have.
                  Last edited by ERCougar; 03-26-2014, 07:05 AM.
                  At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                  -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                    Last week, I treated a good friend and riding partner for a concussion, a few broken ribs, a pneumothorax, and a pulmonary contusion that he sustained while riding. This just after hearing about Solon's friend who was killed riding the week before. So as I got out on my bike yesterday for the first time since my surgery, I was pretty shaky. I finished (stationary bike fitness does not equal cycling fitness!), and when I got home, I did some googling. So for SU (who probably won't see this, but oh well):
                    http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2013/...ransportation/


                    But really, as every runner or cyclist knows, it's not about extending life, it's about getting more out of the life you have.
                    That was interesting and comforting; I want to believe the overall conclusion, but I'd like to hear more on the subject. Given the deaths I've read of around here (including the couple our age that was hit by a teenage driver, killing the wife, within a short walk of our home), I'm very concerned about the risk of getting hit, but the benefits seem to far outweigh the risks so we keep riding.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                      That was interesting and comforting; I want to believe the overall conclusion, but I'd like to hear more on the subject. Given the deaths I've read of around here (including the couple our age that was hit by a teenage driver, killing the wife, within a short walk of our home), I'm very concerned about the risk of getting hit, but the benefits seem to far outweigh the risks so we keep riding.
                      Yeah, he makes a few questionable assumptions in his calculations, but I'm not really sure it would affect the conclusion too much. I think there are at least a few reasons it seems counterintuitive. First, the benefit from cycling comes from longer life, which we don't directly observe. Second, you feel more vulnerable in a bike, so it seems more dangerous, for much the same reason that flying seems more dangerous than driving. Third, the stories we all hear and remember are notable for a reason.

                      He makes the point (although he doesn't factor it in to the calculation) that the cycling death rate is disproportionately high for most of us because it includes a lot of children with no driver training, homeless people, and DUI offenders with suspended licenses. From a medical and anecdotal perspective, every really bad cycling accident victim that I can remember seeing in the ER has been drunk (I'm not counting my friend because while I wouldn't have wanted his injuries, there was really no doubt he was going to survive and recover completely). Also, I can think of a lot more horrendous car accident injuries than I can cycling ones, although obviously far more people spend far more hours in cars.
                      At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                      -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by RC Vikings View Post
                        Over on CB someone will post an article where a cyclist got hit and killed and without a doubt their will be a couple of people that will point out that they see cyclist run stop signs all the time so they probably deserved to be hit. These cyclist that fly through the stop signs give every cyclist a bad name and make it a little more dangerous for everybody else because some people get more aggressive around cyclist. I'm always amazed at drivers that won't slow down and let the car coming the opposite direction pass so that we are not three wide on the road. They must feel my life is not worth the extra 10-15 seconds it would take to get to their final destination.

                        Almost every death I've ever heard of the cyclist was following the rules of the road and a careless, drunk or texting driver hit them and they do seem to get off to easily.
                        Just yesterday coming South from South Temple on State Street a cyclist came along weaving in and out of traffic. His move in front of me was especially dangerous since my reflexes aren't what they used to be, but I did manage to slam on the brakes in time.

                        However, I guess that is why I don't post on CB anymore because I had no thoughts the guy deserves to get killed. Just maybe a broken leg.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                          That was interesting and comforting; I want to believe the overall conclusion, but I'd like to hear more on the subject. Given the deaths I've read of around here (including the couple our age that was hit by a teenage driver, killing the wife, within a short walk of our home), I'm very concerned about the risk of getting hit, but the benefits seem to far outweigh the risks so we keep riding.
                          Doing a quick search I found this as part of an article that is loaded with data...

                          FatalityRate.jpg
                          http://www.bellboycott.com/cached/ww...alth/risks.htm

                          It seems bicycling is actually very safe but not as near as safe as running around with a loaded gun.
                          "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                          "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                          "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                          GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
                            Doing a quick search I found this as part of an article that is loaded with data...

                            [ATTACH]3948[/ATTACH]
                            http://www.bellboycott.com/cached/ww...alth/risks.htm

                            It seems bicycling is actually very safe but not as near as safe as running around with a loaded gun.

                            Figures have to be for U.S. citizens. Based on the numbers life expectency (sp) is around 72 years. I would have thought Airline Flying would have been even better if only counting U.S. citizens.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
                              Doing a quick search I found this as part of an article that is loaded with data...

                              [ATTACH]3948[/ATTACH]
                              http://www.bellboycott.com/cached/ww...alth/risks.htm

                              It seems bicycling is actually very safe but not as near as safe as running around with a loaded gun.
                              And I would guess that a majority of those deaths are caused by something other than the loaded gun. Hypothermia, heat stroke, heart attacks, falls, etc.
                              I'm like LeBron James.
                              -mpfunk

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