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  • #31
    Originally posted by Omaha 680 View Post
    I read a study that you have to be heading the ball with the frequency of professional players before it can begin to be a risk. As in hundreds of times over the course of one season. Which brings me to my question for those that are afraid to let their kids play football: there has always been risk of serious injury in football, but doens't all the data coming out suggest that it is the repetitive subconcussive blows over many years that lead to CTE? It is my understanding that NFL players are experiencing CTE because they spent decades getting subconcussive and concussive blows on a regular basis. Are there any documented cases of someone who just played to a through high school developing CTE, or through college for that matter?
    I read (or maybe heard) a report that suggested this was the case. In fact, it might have been a freakonomics radio podcast.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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    • #32
      Originally posted by YOhio View Post
      This is where I think most people stand. Did anyone think the game was safe? Are these stories and findings really that much of a surprise to anyone?
      This is one of the main issues regarding how the NFL has handled things. The league has been saying that concussions didn't lead to long-term brain damage, that independent doctors' studies - peer-reviewed, published studies - were flawed, that NFL players are somehow less prone to brain damage than the general population, etc. They were telling players the game was safe.

      Tagliabue approached the situation like a lawyer: gather/create as much supporting evidence as you can, and attack/deny sources of contrary evidence. Goodell has been walking a line of getting the league into a more responsible approach w/r/t head trauma without admitting the league was unreasonable in its previous actions. That's why most of the statements from the league have a "we're learning more each day" type of statement in them.
      "What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone

      "What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky

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      • #33
        http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...11072125138740

        But it would be grotesquely misleading to suggest that the average football player is likely to be consigned to dementia and early death. Scientists at the University of Montreal tracked a group of middle-aged men who had played contact sports in college 30 years before and sustained concussions while doing so. According to a 2012 study published in the journal Cerebral Cortex, the researchers found no evidence of cognitive impairment beyond the effects of "normal aging."

        Presumably there is even less impairment among the vast majority of football players who never compete at the college level. Indeed, a 2002 study by Mayo Clinic researchers, who surveyed 915 football players between the ages of 9 and 13, found that injuries were relatively rare and, when they did occur, were mild, the most common being contusions (i.e., bruises).
        Little kids playing football have not the mass nor the velocity to do CTE type damage to themselves very easily.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Omaha 680 View Post
          I read a study that you have to be heading the ball with the frequency of professional players before it can begin to be a risk. As in hundreds of times over the course of one season.
          When I played in high school I headed the ball hundreds of times in the course of a season. Think about this: Goalie drop kicks the ball which flies high in the air and comes down fifty yards down field. Five players gather under the falling ball and jump hoping to redirect with their heads. In the attempt to head the ball two of the guys band their heads together pretty hard. The guy who actually gets his noggin on the ball gets enough force on the ball to redirect it thirty yards or farther down field in the opposite direction. I'd submit to you that a soccer ball coming down at that speed can put significant stress on a helmetless head. It's probably worse than anything I experienced in football.

          From personal experience I think soccer is far worse than the study you cited.

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          • #35
            There will likely be many more rules changes that come about. I've wondered if they'll outlaw any hits from the shoulders up.

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            • #36
              I guess the issue is if this means the end of football or the end of football with the current rules and equipment. If all we are talking about is the latter, then it is almost certainly correct. If the former, I think it is almost certainly incorrect. But for purposes of making a thread title, I guess it sounds better than something like "Confirmed: hitting your head really hard again and again is not good for you."

              A lot of folks think we should get rid of helmets and follow the rugby model.
              PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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              • #37
                I am glad my grandson has chosen not to play football. He is too good at baseball to risk getting hurt playing football. I hope the lure of it in H.S. doesn't get to him.

                It wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit if they ended football. I wouldn't have to take crap from the rosy eyed homers on here over my educated and well thought out positions on BYU football.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Omaha 680 View Post
                  Are there any documented cases of someone who just played to a through high school developing CTE, or through college for that matter?
                  You aren't familiar with former BYU offensive coordinator Mike Borich?

                  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/22/sp...ions.html?_r=0

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by creekster View Post
                    A lot of folks think we should get rid of helmets and follow the rugby model.
                    I've seen that argued and it makes sense. My son plays both and he is more apt to lead with his head in football than in rugby. I do think playing rugby has helped him learn to tackle better - wrap up, get low, etc. There are concussions in rugby and they do have a type of helmet but it doesn't offer near the protection of football helmets.
                    "You interns are like swallows. You shit all over my patients for six weeks and then fly off."

                    "Don't be sorry, it's not your fault. It's my fault for overestimating your competence."

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by hostile View Post
                      I've seen that argued and it makes sense. My son plays both and he is more apt to lead with his head in football than in rugby. I do think playing rugby has helped him learn to tackle better - wrap up, get low, etc. There are concussions in rugby and they do have a type of helmet but it doesn't offer near the protection of football helmets.
                      Agreed. lol: "scrum caps"

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Shaka View Post

                        From personal experience I think soccer is far worse than the study you cited.
                        http://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/14/us...in-soccer.html
                        I remember when this study was in the news. I think soccer is a good example that there are risks, often ones we don't tend to the think about, from playing sports.
                        Originally posted by byu71 View Post
                        I am glad my grandson has chosen not to play football. He is too good at baseball to risk getting hurt playing football. I hope the lure of it in H.S. doesn't get to him.
                        I used to say I did not want my boys to play football. Then my 2nd boy came around. He is only 6. He is a nice kid with a good sense of humor. He loves to run and smash into other kids and push them and drive them around. He thinks its fun. It took a lot of work as a nursery kid to get him to not do this at church.

                        He recently played soccer and kept getting pulled out for being physical. The league he was in had kids up to 2 years older and there really weren't any other kids his age. He is stocky and really tall for his age, but he was only the same size as the older group of kids, and he was way less coordinated. The other kids would get mad at him (and nobody blamed them) and start smashing him. He really got knocked down hard sometimes because they would get him when he wasn't looking and his lack of coordination did not help him recover from the "bumps". Our other kids would have cried and the other kids on the other teams would cry. He would smile ignore the bloody knees and run down the field looking for a chance to nail them if they got around the ball. It was really frustrating trying to get him to "get the picture", stop doing this, and play soccer. His coaches tried. We tried, but there was nothing we could do to stop it. He laughs a lot and would go after the ball, but it was clear he was looking for the kind of contact that pisses parents off. We did not sign him up again this season.

                        I think there will always be a place for an aggressive game that involves contact like football or rugby. My 2nd son has been this way his whole life. I don't think he is going to grow out of being aggressive. It's just fun for him and I think his size is what gets him into trouble. When he gets old enough I don't think I am going to stop him from playing football if he wants to.

                        We all know high school is the end of the line for almost all kids, but being part of a team doing what you love is great for them. It teaches them to work hard, practice, and be part of a team. I think that benefit needs to weigh into the equation as well. There are lots of boys who are going to find their best fit in a game like football, rugby, or something like it. Or they will just turn all the other sports into an aggressive contact sport.

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                        • #42
                          I watched Dashon Goldson play safety last year and he was penalized for a bad every other game. Goldson left in free agency and the Niners drafted Eric Reid.

                          Reid is a significantly smarter player and I can't recall a time where he committed a personal foul (a "Goldson"). Reid tackles and hits in a way that doesn't get flagged and would seem to produce far fewer concussions.

                          I think the NFL needs to ban those old school Riddel helmets immediately. There are far better helmets yet the league doesn't require them.

                          I also think they need to install more rules that promote better form tackling. I also think personal fouls that are called under these rules need to be reviewed to see if the player really committed the penalty.
                          Part of it is based on academic grounds. Among major conferences, the Pac-10 is the best academically, largely because of Stanford, Cal and UCLA. “Colorado is on a par with Oregon,” he said. “Utah isn’t even in the picture.”

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                          • #43
                            Believe me, no one loves football more than I do. I just think that some day the link between CTE and football tackles will become undeniable, and football will become so different that you may as well call it soccer with a pass.

                            Scientists at the University of Montreal tracked a group of middle-aged men who had played contact sports in college 30 years before and sustained concussions while doing so. According to a 2012 study published in the journal Cerebral Cortex, the researchers found no evidence of cognitive impairment beyond the effects of "normal aging."


                            The problem with these kinds of studies are the methods they use to assess impairment to the brain. CTE manifests itself with the flooding of the brain with Tau. (Im the first to admit I am not familiar with the technical details). You have to cut open the brains of dead guys to find this. Otherwise, you're looking for parkinsons and depression and other symptoms that may not have a clear link to CTE.


                            Presumably there is even less impairment among the vast majority of football players who never compete at the college level. Indeed, a 2002 study by Mayo Clinic researchers, who surveyed 915 football players between the ages of 9 and 13, found that injuries were relatively rare and, when they did occur, were mild, the most common being contusions (i.e., bruises).


                            Again, the insidiousness of CTE is that it doesn't manifest itself until years later, even when the subconcussive injuries occurred years before. So surveying teen aged players is not going to tell you anything about CTE in later years.

                            I'll admit that it is hard to pinpoint CTE, unless you have the family's permission to dig through the brain of the dead player. That chasm in years between the cause and the later CTE effect will buy just enough doubt for players that "it won't happen to me." But if parents are making the decision, they might not be so careless with their sons.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by hostile View Post
                              I've seen that argued and it makes sense. My son plays both and he is more apt to lead with his head in football than in rugby. I do think playing rugby has helped him learn to tackle better - wrap up, get low, etc. There are concussions in rugby and they do have a type of helmet but it doesn't offer near the protection of football helmets.
                              I was hoping someone with a rugby background would wiegh in as I've never played rugby and am not familar with the equipment/gear. I would guess the shoulder pads would be different as well between football and rugby. Without all the protective gear, those hard hits that result in concussions and other serious injury would be reduced.

                              Coaching will also have to change and adapt. I remember getting yelled at by coaches for sacking a QB (blindside) but not hitting him hard enough. Coaches were not happy when the QB jumped back up. We were coached that a good tackle was not enough, one had to hit hard enough to knock the ball loose and make the ball carrier afraid of getting hit. So a QB would errantly throw a pass too early out of fear, a WR would take his eyes off the ball, or a RB would run out of bounds prior to contact. Those tactics may have to change but it will be progress. When I was in HS, the players had to "earn their water" during two-a-day practices in the summer heat. Players fainted but the coaches thought it toughened us up. So progress is possible.
                              “Not the victory but the action. Not the goal but the game. In the deed the glory.”
                              "All things are measured against Nebraska." falafel

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                                I would say that there have been substantial changes to helmets, pads, etc. over the years. But I don't see anyone claiming that it was "the end of football". Sure there will be an ongoing series of tweaks and adjustments to equipment and rules, but to say that football will be killed off in 20 years strikes me as nutty hyperbole.
                                where did I say this?
                                Dio perdona tante cose per un’opera di misericordia
                                God forgives many things for an act of mercy
                                Alessandro Manzoni

                                Knock it off. This board has enough problems without a dose of middle-age lechery.

                                pelagius

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