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Thread: NY Times Article on Dissaffected Swedish Area Authority

  1. #61
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkGrace View Post
    This has to be the case. Ages, polyandry, etc., I can see. To just not know that Joseph practiced polygamy? I have a hard time believing that one.
    On my mission to Argentina, someone told us that Joseph practiced polygamy. I told him he must be confusing Joseph with Brigham - that Joseph's only wife was Emma.

    Several years later while I was in college, my well-read brother-in-law asked me why Joseph had married women that were already married to other active LDS men. I was a taken aback, but tried to act like I knew what he was talking about. That's the first time that I remember believing that Joseph had practiced plural marriage of any kind.

    I've since had conversations about it with my mother, who seems like she wasn't aware until somewhat recently.
    Last edited by Pelado; 07-23-2013 at 09:58 PM.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    How did I not know it until I was well into law school?
    Yeah. I vaguely knew about polygamy but i believed it was because all of those helpless women lost their husbands in the Mormon battalion. I knew nothing of polyandry.
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Tic View Post
    How many people on this board that are perhaps only half-in the church now or maybe even all the way out went on a mission, learned about some of this stuff and managed to shelve it for a while until it became too much? Or perhaps learn something in more detail--e.g., not just that JS had multiple wives but their ages and circumstances and so on--and then that becomes the straw that broke the camel's back? .
    Me but prop 8 and mormon response to homosexuals was also a big factor.
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    How did I not know it until I was well into law school?
    Same here, and there are enough of us to where people who call us liars or ignoramuses are not taking an honest look at things (at best).
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  5. #65
    Grooveshark dick tease MarkGrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Public View Post
    Same here, and there are enough of us to where people who call us liars or ignoramuses are not taking an honest look at things (at best).
    I'm not calling anyone a liar or ignoramus. In fact, everyone who has chimed in is only proving my point. Nik and you found out in law school, Pelado a handful of years after his mission, etc. This dude has been a member for ages, has served in an area presidency, etc., and he didn't know about Joseph's polygamy? But I think Sooner's assumption is the correct one. It has to be more about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's polygamy than actually finding out about the practice as portrayed in the article.
    So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

  6. #66
    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    The following is a line by line transcription of the letter by Joseph Smith to Newel K. Whitney, his wife and daughter, dated August 18th, 1842. They were to "burn this letter as soon as you read it," this instruction they did not keep.

    LETTER BY JOSEPH SMITH TO NEWEL K. WHITNEY, HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER.

    PAGE ONE
    LINE TEXT
    1 Nauvoo, August 18th 1842
    2 Dear, and Beloved, Brother and
    3 Sister, Whitney, and & c.--
    4 I take this opportunity to communicate,
    5 Some of my feelings, privetely at
    6 this time, which I want you three
    7 Eternaly to keep in your own
    8 bosams; for my feelings are so
    9 Strong for you Since what has
    10 pased lately between us, that the
    11 time of my abscence from you
    12 Seems so long, and dreary, that
    13 it Seems, as if I could not live
    if you
    14 long in this way; and ^ Three would
    15 come and See me in this my lonely
    16 retreat, it would afford me great
    17 relief, of mind, if those with whom
    18 I am alied, do love me, now is the
    19 time to afford me succour; in the
    20 days of exile, for you know I
    21 foretold you of these things. I am
    22 now at Carlos Graingers, Just back
    23 of Brother Hyrums farm, it is only one
    24 mile from town, the nights are
    25 very pleasant, indeed, all three of
    can
    26 you come^ and See me in the
    27 fore part of the night, let Brother
    28 Whitney come a little a head, and
    29 nock at the south East corner of
    the
    30 the house att ^ window; it is next to
    31 the cornfield; I have a room inti-
    32 -rely by myself, the whole matter
    33 can be attended to with most perfect
    know
    34 Safty, I ^ it is the will of God that you
    me
    35 should comfort ^ now in this time
    36 of affliction, or not at all, now is the

    PAGE TWO
    LINE TEXT
    1 time or never, but I hav no kneed of saying
    2 any such thing, to you, for I know the
    3 goodness of your hearts, and that you
    4 will do the will of the Lord, when it is
    5 made known to you; the only thing
    6 to be careful of, is to find out when
    7 Emma comes then you cannot be
    8 Safe, but when She is not here, there
    9 is the most perfect Safty: only be
    10 careful to escape observation, as
    11 much as possible, I know it is a
    12 heroick undertaking; but so much
    13 the greater friendship, and the more
    will
    14 Joy, when I see you I ^ tell you all
    15 my plans, I cannot write them on
    16 paper, burn this letter as soon as you
    17 read it; keep all locked up in
    18 your breasts, my life depends up-
    19 -on it. one thing I want to see you
    to
    20 for is ^ git the fulness of my blessing
    21 Sealed upon our heads, &c. you
    22 will pardon me for my ernest-
    this subject
    23 -ness on ^ when you consider how
    24 lonesome I must be, your good
    make
    25 feelings know how to ^ every allow
    26 -ance for me, I close my letter.
    27 I think Emma wont come tonight
    28 if she dont dont fail to come to
    29 night, I subscribe myself your
    and
    30 most obedient, ^ affectionate,
    31 Companion, and friend.
    32 Joseph Smith
    That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

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  7. #67
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    And where did you copy this from?
    Everything in life is an approximation.

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  8. #68
    Grooveshark dick tease MarkGrace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    The following is a line by line transcription of the letter by Joseph Smith to Newel K. Whitney, his wife and daughter, dated August 18th, 1842. They were to "burn this letter as soon as you read it," this instruction they did not keep.

    LETTER BY JOSEPH SMITH TO NEWEL K. WHITNEY, HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER.

    PAGE ONE
    LINE TEXT
    1 Nauvoo, August 18th 1842
    2 Dear, and Beloved, Brother and
    3 Sister, Whitney, and & c.--
    4 I take this opportunity to communicate,
    5 Some of my feelings, privetely at
    6 this time, which I want you three
    7 Eternaly to keep in your own
    8 bosams; for my feelings are so
    9 Strong for you Since what has
    10 pased lately between us, that the
    11 time of my abscence from you
    12 Seems so long, and dreary, that
    13 it Seems, as if I could not live
    if you
    14 long in this way; and ^ Three would
    15 come and See me in this my lonely
    16 retreat, it would afford me great
    17 relief, of mind, if those with whom
    18 I am alied, do love me, now is the
    19 time to afford me succour; in the
    20 days of exile, for you know I
    21 foretold you of these things. I am
    22 now at Carlos Graingers, Just back
    23 of Brother Hyrums farm, it is only one
    24 mile from town, the nights are
    25 very pleasant, indeed, all three of
    can
    26 you come^ and See me in the
    27 fore part of the night, let Brother
    28 Whitney come a little a head, and
    29 nock at the south East corner of
    the
    30 the house att ^ window; it is next to
    31 the cornfield; I have a room inti-
    32 -rely by myself, the whole matter
    33 can be attended to with most perfect
    know
    34 Safty, I ^ it is the will of God that you
    me
    35 should comfort ^ now in this time
    36 of affliction, or not at all, now is the

    PAGE TWO
    LINE TEXT
    1 time or never, but I hav no kneed of saying
    2 any such thing, to you, for I know the
    3 goodness of your hearts, and that you
    4 will do the will of the Lord, when it is
    5 made known to you; the only thing
    6 to be careful of, is to find out when
    7 Emma comes then you cannot be
    8 Safe, but when She is not here, there
    9 is the most perfect Safty: only be
    10 careful to escape observation, as
    11 much as possible, I know it is a
    12 heroick undertaking; but so much
    13 the greater friendship, and the more
    will
    14 Joy, when I see you I ^ tell you all
    15 my plans, I cannot write them on
    16 paper, burn this letter as soon as you
    17 read it; keep all locked up in
    18 your breasts, my life depends up-
    19 -on it. one thing I want to see you
    to
    20 for is ^ git the fulness of my blessing
    21 Sealed upon our heads, &c. you
    22 will pardon me for my ernest-
    this subject
    23 -ness on ^ when you consider how
    24 lonesome I must be, your good
    make
    25 feelings know how to ^ every allow
    26 -ance for me, I close my letter.
    27 I think Emma wont come tonight
    28 if she dont dont fail to come to
    29 night, I subscribe myself your
    and
    30 most obedient, ^ affectionate,
    31 Companion, and friend.
    32 Joseph Smith
    Donuthole's head just exploded!

    And where's the shocking part?
    So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkGrace View Post
    I'm not calling anyone a liar or ignoramus. In fact, everyone who has chimed in is only proving my point. Nik and you found out in law school, Pelado a handful of years after his mission, etc. This dude has been a member for ages, has served in an area presidency, etc., and he didn't know about Joseph's polygamy? But I think Sooner's assumption is the correct one. It has to be more about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's polygamy than actually finding out about the practice as portrayed in the article.
    I think part of it was when he started to hear it from what he considered credible sources. It was easy for me to dismiss a random Argentine's assertion of Joseph's polygamy as uninformed anti-Mormon rhetoric. It was much harder for me to write off my active LDS brother-in-law.

    He probably did hear all manner of accusations about the church, but it may not have fazed him so long as the accusations came from non-credible sources.
    Last edited by Pelado; 07-23-2013 at 10:57 PM.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  10. #70
    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkGrace View Post
    Donuthole's head just exploded!

    And where's the shocking part?
    I think the context is what makes it shocking. He had married their daughter a few weeks before he wrote this letter.
    That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

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  11. #71
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    I think the context is what makes it shocking. He had married their daughter a few weeks before he wrote this letter.
    How old was she at the time of the marriage? And I'll repeat Indy's question - where's the source?
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    How old was she at the time of the marriage? And I'll repeat Indy's question - where's the source?
    She was 17.


    George Albert Smith Family Papers, Manuscript 36, Box 1, Early Smith Documents, 1731-1849, Folder 18, in the Special Collections, Western Americana, Marriott Library, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah.


    Love Letter asking for a secret tryst with a young secret wife: http://user.xmission.com/~research/family/strange.htm

    Not a Love Letter, but just a letter to the Whitneys. The demand for secrecy was made to protect Joseph's life: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...jessee.539-540
    "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
    -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkGrace View Post
    I'm not calling anyone a liar or ignoramus. In fact, everyone who has chimed in is only proving my point. Nik and you found out in law school, Pelado a handful of years after his mission, etc. This dude has been a member for ages, has served in an area presidency, etc., and he didn't know about Joseph's polygamy? But I think Sooner's assumption is the correct one. It has to be more about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's polygamy than actually finding out about the practice as portrayed in the article.
    To be clear, I wasn't trying to imply that you or any specific other person on the board was doing so (well, maybe Indy ). I have heard it at church, though.

    I don't have the time right now to flesh out the reasons, but I can see a guy like this or the former Tulsa temple president, based on their background, geography, ancestry, faithfulness, church era in which they reached adolescence and adulthood, etc., getting pretty far without having this stuff come up. Like Bushman says in the article, it just wasn't talked about.
    "What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone

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  14. #74
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    Indy is not talking about exposure to various interesting points in Mormon history as a Saint in Sweden, but about the time Elder Mattson served as a missionary in the UK. Indy cited his experience in the UK, which seems more relevant that anything missionaries might encounter from the French. About the time I served, a missionary was kidnapped in the UK by his girlfriend, creating a lot of good fodder for the tabloid press.
    Okay, that does make a bit more sense, but still I wouldn't have read any of that stuff or really listened to any of it since I'd have deemed it anti-Mormon and was obviously told to avoid it. I also didn't learn of any of hte BoM historicity stuff until I was at least 30 and that was mostly influenced by CB. I doubt Mattson is a frequent poster on any internet chat site and probably spent little time on the internet when he was in church leadership positions.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  15. #75
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkGrace View Post
    I'm not calling anyone a liar or ignoramus. In fact, everyone who has chimed in is only proving my point. Nik and you found out in law school, Pelado a handful of years after his mission, etc. This dude has been a member for ages, has served in an area presidency, etc., and he didn't know about Joseph's polygamy? But I think Sooner's assumption is the correct one. It has to be more about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's polygamy than actually finding out about the practice as portrayed in the article.
    Just out of curiosity, can anyone post a link to any church produced document (lesson manual, GA book, CES course, movie, video clip, online resource, etc.) that discusses Joseph's polygamy? I'm really just curious if one exists.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  16. #76
    𐐐𐐄𐐢𐐆𐐤𐐝 𐐓𐐅 𐐜 𐐢𐐃𐐡𐐔 Uncle Ted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Just out of curiosity, can anyone post a link to any church produced document (lesson manual, GA book, CES course, movie, video clip, online resource, etc.) that discusses Joseph's polygamy? I'm really just curious if one exists.
    The church manual Truth Restored implies that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy although it leaves out the details...

    https://www.lds.org/manual/truth-res...rance?lang=eng
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  17. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    The following is a line by line transcription of the letter by Joseph Smith to Newel K. Whitney, his wife and daughter, dated August 18th, 1842. They were to "burn this letter as soon as you read it," this instruction they did not keep.

    LETTER BY JOSEPH SMITH TO NEWEL K. WHITNEY, HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER.

    PAGE ONE
    LINE TEXT
    1 Nauvoo, August 18th 1842
    2 Dear, and Beloved, Brother and
    3 Sister, Whitney, and & c.--
    4 I take this opportunity to communicate,
    5 Some of my feelings, privetely at
    6 this time, which I want you three
    7 Eternaly to keep in your own
    8 bosams; for my feelings are so
    9 Strong for you Since what has
    10 pased lately between us, that the
    11 time of my abscence from you
    12 Seems so long, and dreary, that
    13 it Seems, as if I could not live
    if you
    14 long in this way; and ^ Three would
    15 come and See me in this my lonely
    16 retreat, it would afford me great
    17 relief, of mind, if those with whom
    18 I am alied, do love me, now is the
    19 time to afford me succour; in the
    20 days of exile, for you know I
    21 foretold you of these things. I am
    22 now at Carlos Graingers, Just back
    23 of Brother Hyrums farm, it is only one
    24 mile from town, the nights are
    25 very pleasant, indeed, all three of
    can
    26 you come^ and See me in the
    27 fore part of the night, let Brother
    28 Whitney come a little a head, and
    29 nock at the south East corner of
    the
    30 the house att ^ window; it is next to
    31 the cornfield; I have a room inti-
    32 -rely by myself, the whole matter
    33 can be attended to with most perfect
    know
    34 Safty, I ^ it is the will of God that you
    me
    35 should comfort ^ now in this time
    36 of affliction, or not at all, now is the

    PAGE TWO
    LINE TEXT
    1 time or never, but I hav no kneed of saying
    2 any such thing, to you, for I know the
    3 goodness of your hearts, and that you
    4 will do the will of the Lord, when it is
    5 made known to you; the only thing
    6 to be careful of, is to find out when
    7 Emma comes then you cannot be
    8 Safe, but when She is not here, there
    9 is the most perfect Safty: only be
    10 careful to escape observation, as
    11 much as possible, I know it is a
    12 heroick undertaking; but so much
    13 the greater friendship, and the more
    will
    14 Joy, when I see you I ^ tell you all
    15 my plans, I cannot write them on
    16 paper, burn this letter as soon as you
    17 read it; keep all locked up in
    18 your breasts, my life depends up-
    19 -on it. one thing I want to see you
    to
    20 for is ^ git the fulness of my blessing
    21 Sealed upon our heads, &c. you
    22 will pardon me for my ernest-
    this subject
    23 -ness on ^ when you consider how
    24 lonesome I must be, your good
    make
    25 feelings know how to ^ every allow
    26 -ance for me, I close my letter.
    27 I think Emma wont come tonight
    28 if she dont dont fail to come to
    29 night, I subscribe myself your
    and
    30 most obedient, ^ affectionate,
    31 Companion, and friend.
    32 Joseph Smith
    It's clear to me now that whoever wrote this letter also wrote the BoM.

  18. #78
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    It's clear to me now that whoever wrote this letter also wrote the BoM.
    That's what ran through my head while reading it. It was a heroick effort on his part.
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    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    Yeah. I vaguely knew about polygamy but i believed it was because all of those helpless women lost their husbands in the Mormon battalion. I knew nothing of polyandry.
    I honestly thought polygamy started with Brigham Young and was about taking care of all those poor widows from Haun's Mill. I learned that Joseph Smith was a polygamist from a photo caption in an AP news story about the Nauvoo Temple in the fall of 2002. It was the exact moment my religious world started to implode.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    I already stated I believed they wanted additional information and I have no problem with that. My point of contention is how Mattsson portrayed himself in the article as some vastly experienced member who had served a mission and many years of leadership experience in the church and miraculously only became aware of this stuff very recently.

    I served a mission to England just like he did. Brits were always throwing this kind of stuff in my face when I was on my pre-internet mission; but none of it was a surprise because I had already been exposed to this stuff years beforehand. Do I believe for a second he didn't encounter this stuff while tracting 40, 50 or more hours a week? Not bloody likely. I think either he's being disingenuous or Ms. Goodstein decided to paint him as being a little more oblivious than he really was.
    I haven't read all the Mattsson stuff closely. I think it's possible he was overstating his case on this stuff. But I generally take a huge exception with the idea you seem to be implying in the bolded area. As a youth, I think I was at least in the upper half in terms of awareness of these issues. I was active in the church my whole life, lived outside of Utah and in Utah, went to BYU, served a mission read a lot of church books, father was a BYU professor, etc. This was my awareness and assumptions on issues until relatively late in life (30'):

    Joseph Smith polygamy: they were spiritual and none of them were sexual
    Joseph Smith treasure seeking: anti-Mormon lies conflating seeking out the gold plates with actual treasure seeking and made up after the fact
    First Vision account variation: anti-Mormon lies, nothing to it
    Masonry/temple endowment: both rooted in Solomon's temple, so this actually confirms the truthfulness
    BOM translation sketchiness: anti-Mormon lies, Joseph used the Urim and Thumim
    BoA sketchiness: anti-Mormon lies, the real scrolls used in translation were lost and anti-Mormons are trying to make it seem like we have the scrolls when we don't

    I can go on and on. Yes, I knew about all these issues. Yes, I had been faced with them. But really I had no real understanding of any of them. Mormons, especially back then, were encouraged to only use sanctioned resources to study the issues, and none of them gave an honest treatment. So to accuse other Mormons they should have known about these issues is very, very unfair.

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    I honestly thought polygamy started with Brigham Young and was about taking care of all those poor widows from Haun's Mill. I learned that Joseph Smith was a polygamist from a photo caption in an AP news story about the Nauvoo Temple in the fall of 2002. It was the exact moment my religious world started to implode.
    LOL. It didn't strike you as odd that Brother Brigham had over 50 wives and less than 20 people died at Haun's Mill?
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    LOL. It didn't strike you as odd that Brother Brigham had over 50 wives and less than 20 people died at Haun's Mill?
    Self delusion is a hell of a drug.
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  23. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    Just out of curiosity, can anyone post a link to any church produced document (lesson manual, GA book, CES course, movie, video clip, online resource, etc.) that discusses Joseph's polygamy? I'm really just curious if one exists.
    Since the time I learned about JS' polygamy I've wondered why BY seems to get the rap for it. I started this thread awhile ago wondering if the cause was that it wasn't revealed to the body of the church until after their arrival and settlement in SLC.

  24. #84
    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    That's what ran through my head while reading it. It was a heroick effort on his part.
    The BOM is rambling--just like the letter. Are you guys trying to imply that the BOM is written in good English or that it wasn't edited later?
    That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

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  25. #85
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scottie View Post
    Since the time I learned about JS' polygamy I've wondered why BY seems to get the rap for it. I started this thread awhile ago wondering if the cause was that it wasn't revealed to the body of the church until after their arrival and settlement in SLC.
    That's an easy question to answer.

    1. The existence BY's of polygamy was completely public

    2. The church's polygamy as a whole was public

    3. It went on for decades, whereas JS' polygamy was relatively brief and almost completely private.
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  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    The BOM is rambling--just like the letter. Are you guys trying to imply that the BOM is written in good English or that it wasn't edited later?
    When I read the letter you copied and pasted, I can hear Moroni's voice boldly ringing in my head.
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  27. #87
    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    Random BOM passage:

    1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
    2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
    3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
    4 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
    5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
    6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
    7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
    8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
    9 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
    10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
    11 And it came to pass that we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
    12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
    13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
    That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

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  28. #88
    I've Made a Huge Mistake. Harry Tic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    The BOM is rambling--just like the letter. Are you guys trying to imply that the BOM is written in good English or that it wasn't edited later?
    I shudder to think what Donuthole's reaction would have been had he first encountered the BoM in its original manuscript form.
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  29. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Tic View Post
    I shudder to think what Donuthole's reaction would have been had he first encountered the BoM in its original manuscript form.
    You missed a good opportunity there. Should have said "shutter to think". Come on, get with the program newbie.

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
    You missed a good opportunity there. Should have said "shutter to think". Come on, get with the program newbie.
    Or, "would of been." I better that would have gotten his spider sense tingling as well. Sometimes I wonder if he has written some kind of script that screens all CS posts and automatically pings him if some bad grammer comes up.
    Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
    --William Blake, via Shpongle

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