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NY Times Article on Dissaffected Swedish Area Authority

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  • #31
    Originally posted by AggieIam View Post
    My situatio is similar to yours. And we aren't alone. Every once in a while I run into an old friend just to find out they have more or less left the church. All have stated that they are happier because of it. Myself included. The way the church handles apostacy only pushes people farther away leaving them with a bitter taste towards the church.
    Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Ah... The bitter apostate. You are hitting all the stereotypes.
    Wait, I thought AggieIam was saying, like Vic, that he's still active ("my situation is similar to yours") even though some of his friends have bailed. I guess I'm confused.

    EDIT: And I'm wary of setting the bar for apostasy too low anyway. 'Disaffected,' 'disappointed,' 'bored,' 'unfulfilled' and the like don't qualify in my book. For it to be apostasy it has to involve something with rather more flair, like setting yourself on fire or going on Oprah.
    Last edited by Harry Tic; 07-23-2013, 01:13 PM.
    Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
    --William Blake, via Shpongle

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
      Wait, I thought AggieIam was saying, like Vic, that he's still active ("my situation is similar to yours") even though some of his friends have bailed. I guess I'm confused.

      EDIT: And I'm wary of setting the bar for apostasy too low anyway. 'Disaffected,' 'disappointed,' 'bored,' 'unfulfilled' and the like don't qualify in my book. For it to be apostasy it has to involve something with rather more flair, like setting yourself on fire or going on Oprah.
      http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/Leaving-the-Saints

      Whoa - I am I the last to hear about allegations of sexual abuse by Hugh Nibley?
      "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
      - Goatnapper'96

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Pelado View Post
        http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/Leaving-the-Saints

        Whoa - I am I the last to hear about allegations of sexual abuse by Hugh Nibley?
        Maybe. Probably not. Ftr, my wife has read all of her stuff and thinks the allegations are made up and she's just a super bitter apostate type. But that was years ago before she fully embraced her progmo role.
        Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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        • #34
          Even with correlated, limited Swedish church publications, I have a very difficult time believing this guy didn't know of some of these things given his leadership positions in the church. I mean no members ever brought up any of these issues to him?
          "Nobody listens to Turtle."
          -Turtle
          sigpic

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Pelado View Post
            http://www.oprah.com/omagazine/Leaving-the-Saints

            Whoa - I am I the last to hear about allegations of sexual abuse by Hugh Nibley?
            I came across a book she wrote with her husband in either college or medical school at Deseret Book--started thumbing through it and ended up reading the whole thing. In it, they set up some sort of model for compulsive type behavior and while I don't remember the specifics, I remember finding it really interesting. This was before her public disaffection from the Church and the book was, as you'd expect from any book sold at Deseret Book, very orthodox. I think it was much later when I recognized her name as someone who had publicly left the church. Her writings now are much more fluffy and nonsensical, from what I've looked at.

            I thought you would all enjoy that story. You're welcome.
            At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
            -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Surfah View Post
              Even with correlated, limited Swedish church publications, I have a very difficult time believing this guy didn't know of some of these things given his leadership positions in the church. I mean no members ever brought up any of these issues to him?
              Yeah, I'm flat out calling BS on this one.
              Everything in life is an approximation.

              http://twitter.com/CougarStats

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                Yeah, I'm flat out calling BS on this one.
                I'm calling BS on your calling BS. I think this is an all-too-common reaction that I'm already seeing in the bloggersphere and I think it's crap. The emerging party line seems to be, "Oh, yeah. We all know this stuff. We've always known this stuff. We don't hide this. Everybody knows this stuff." It's disingenuous. This stuff does not get taught and, believe it or not, there are many church leaders--especially outside the US--that have pretty much taken the church line at face value. They read the approved books, they diligently fulfill leadership callings, and they have tended to use the internet for strictly instrumental purposes. It's unsurprising that older members of the church abroad--particularly those who have been more involved with administration rather than spending free time boning up on church history and doctrine or surfing the internet--are just now starting to reach some troubling conclusions.

                Do you have any particular reason to impugn this guy?
                Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
                --William Blake, via Shpongle

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                  I came across a book she wrote with her husband in either college or medical school at Deseret Book--started thumbing through it and ended up reading the whole thing. In it, they set up some sort of model for compulsive type behavior and while I don't remember the specifics, I remember finding it really interesting. This was before her public disaffection from the Church and the book was, as you'd expect from any book sold at Deseret Book, very orthodox. I think it was much later when I recognized her name as someone who had publicly left the church. Her writings now are much more fluffy and nonsensical, from what I've looked at.

                  I thought you would all enjoy that story. You're welcome.
                  This is the book: https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=6139

                  My parents gave it to my sister because they think she needs it. Awkward.

                  One of the compulsive behaviors is homosexuality. Right up there with eating disorders, alcoholism, and drugs.

                  It's a horrible book.
                  "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
                  -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
                    I'm calling BS on your calling BS. I think this is an all-too-common reaction that I'm already seeing in the bloggersphere and I think it's crap. The emerging party line seems to be, "Oh, yeah. We all know this stuff. We've always known this stuff. We don't hide this. Everybody knows this stuff." It's disingenuous. This stuff does not get taught and, believe it or not, there are many church leaders--especially outside the US--that have pretty much taken the church line at face value. They read the approved books, they diligently fulfill leadership callings, and they have tended to use the internet for strictly instrumental purposes. It's unsurprising that older members of the church abroad--particularly those who have been more involved with administration rather than spending free time boning up on church history and doctrine or surfing the internet--are just now starting to reach some troubling conclusions.
                    I have to agree with HT on this one.
                    I'm like LeBron James.
                    -mpfunk

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Solon View Post
                      This is the book: https://byustudies.byu.edu/showtitle.aspx?title=6139

                      My parents gave it to my sister because they think she needs it. Awkward.

                      One of the compulsive behaviors is homosexuality. Right up there with eating disorders, alcoholism, and drugs.

                      It's a horrible book.
                      I was a horrible person.

                      Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
                      I'm calling BS on your calling BS. I think this is an all-too-common reaction that I'm already seeing in the bloggersphere and I think it's crap. The emerging party line seems to be, "Oh, yeah. We all know this stuff. We've always known this stuff. We don't hide this. Everybody knows this stuff." It's disingenuous. This stuff does not get taught and, believe it or not, there are many church leaders--especially outside the US--that have pretty much taken the church line at face value. They read the approved books, they diligently fulfill leadership callings, and they have tended to use the internet for strictly instrumental purposes. It's unsurprising that older members of the church abroad--particularly those who have been more involved with administration rather than spending free time boning up on church history and doctrine or surfing the internet--are just now starting to reach some troubling conclusions.

                      Do you have any particular reason to impugn this guy?
                      It's not so much that they haven't heard of the issues, as much as they don't realize just how credible/valid the issues are, I'd guess. I listened to an interview of a McConkie, very orthodox and knowledgeable guy, who recently completed a study companion to the D&C. He said he was shocked at how little the GAs knew about these issues, because they just don't have the time or the desire to investigate them. They have plenty on their plate already. The church is reportedly addressing this with periodic briefings on different issues with them.


                      Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
                      At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
                      -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                        Yeah, I'm flat out calling BS on this one.
                        I assume you're calling BS on a few other Swedish leaders in the church, who faked it enough to get the attention of Marlin Jensen and Richard Turley to fly over and appease their BS concerns...
                        "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                        "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                        - SeattleUte

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
                          It's not so much that they haven't heard of the issues, as much as they don't realize just how credible/valid the issues are, I'd guess. I listened to an interview of a McConkie, very orthodox and knowledgeable guy, who recently completed a study companion to the D&C. He said he was shocked at how little the GAs knew about these issues, because they just don't have the time or the desire to investigate them. They have plenty on their plate already. The church is reportedly addressing this with periodic briefings on different issues with them.
                          This. Wasn't it Elder Eyring or Elder Holland that said if you ask certain questions of some High Priests groups you would get just as good an answer as if you were to ask the General Authorities? Some GAs are scriptorians and well versed in church history and doctrine, but I suspect these are increasingly a minority. Most, I suspect, are more devotional in their approach to scripture. They're both disinclined to pursue difficult issues and too harried to do so, except insofar as hard questions may occasionally come up in an interview or something. And in those circumstances they are likely, I think, to approach the problem as one of pastoral counseling and administration. I find it entirely plausible that perhaps this Swedish authority had some issues percolating "on the back burner" for a while that for some reason came to the fore (my impression is that there have been some widespread problems circulating among the Swedish saints for the last couple of years).

                          What ticks me off is the old FARMS tactic of smearing someone's motives or reputation when they ask hard questions. There's a reason why Daniel Peterson and his ilk are walking dinosaurs.
                          Last edited by Harry Tic; 07-23-2013, 04:42 PM.
                          Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
                          --William Blake, via Shpongle

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Northwestcoug View Post
                            I assume you're calling BS on a few other Swedish leaders in the church, who faked it enough to get the attention of Marlin Jensen and Richard Turley to fly over and appease their BS concerns...
                            Damn straight I am. I can believe they wanted to see if they could get more info than they had, but I don't believe for a second they didn't know about these issues well before, like years before, the Elder Jensen powwow.
                            Everything in life is an approximation.

                            http://twitter.com/CougarStats

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
                              I'm calling BS on your calling BS. I think this is an all-too-common reaction that I'm already seeing in the bloggersphere and I think it's crap. The emerging party line seems to be, "Oh, yeah. We all know this stuff. We've always known this stuff. We don't hide this. Everybody knows this stuff." It's disingenuous. This stuff does not get taught and, believe it or not, there are many church leaders--especially outside the US--that have pretty much taken the church line at face value. They read the approved books, they diligently fulfill leadership callings, and they have tended to use the internet for strictly instrumental purposes. It's unsurprising that older members of the church abroad--particularly those who have been more involved with administration rather than spending free time boning up on church history and doctrine or surfing the internet--are just now starting to reach some troubling conclusions.
                              Word.
                              We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Indy Coug View Post
                                Damn straight I am. I can believe they wanted to see if they could get more info than they had, but I don't believe for a second they didn't know about these issues well before, like years before, the Elder Jensen powwow.
                                Yeah, and pretty much every member that's ever had a serious question is probably showboating or using their question as a pretext to start chugging Schlitz and looking at the Swimsuit edition without remorse.

                                You're a peach, Indy. Good thing the church leadership in deciding to send Jensen and Turley over is a little more sensitive and discerning than you are.
                                Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
                                --William Blake, via Shpongle

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