NY Times Article on Dissaffected Swedish Area Authority

[YOhio]

When I first heard that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy I pulled over in my car and wept. Or maybe that was when I heard about ending the priesthood ban. Can't remember exactly. But it was one of those.

[Omaha 680]

I can certainly understand (and relate to) being disturbed by encountering the unsavory details associated with the origins of polygamy. But that's a different issue than BY vs JS originating the practice. Both are prophets, right? I hear stories all the time of people being shocked to discover that polygamy originated with JS, independent of these other factors. I still don't get that.

I'm kind of late to the party, but of all the things I have learned about church history in the internet age, Joseph Smith practicing polygamy was not one of them. I was raised in what many here would consider a TBM family, and I always knew that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy and Emma did not approve. I will admit that other issues I didn't know about have been more challenging for me.

[AggieIam]

I was a horrible person.



It's not so much that they haven't heard of the issues, as much as they don't realize just how credible/valid the issues are, I'd guess. I listened to an interview of a McConkie, very orthodox and knowledgeable guy, who recently completed a study companion to the D&C. He said he was shocked at how little the GAs knew about these issues, because they just don't have the time or the desire to investigate them. They have plenty on their plate already. The church is reportedly addressing this with periodic briefings on different issues with them.


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I would expect more leaders to also leave then. Particularly foreign church leaders. Unless the church is taking the same approach at teaching leaders that it has with letting the rest of know. Which I would expect they are.

[SoonerCoug]

The Church's biggest problem here is that these issues go to the Church's credibility (and also Joseph Smith's credibility as a prophet).

No one would ever argue that Warren Jeffs' behavior makes him less credible.

Many Mormons try to justify or defend Joseph Smith's behavior although there is no excuse.

The other approach is to accept Joseph Smith as a horribly imperfect prophet. Then the question is how imperfect is a prophet allowed to be? Where would you draw the line? Two hundred years generates a distance that makes it easier for people to rationalize, excuse, or come to terms with his behavior.

But imagine a 21st century prophet behaving that way.

My parents kept me very well educated regarding these issues even from a young age, so I have never been surprised by them. I have also never really felt compelled to spend a lot of time praying about the truthfulness of the Church or reading scripture. I care about the Church as an institution but don't really regard it as what it claims to be.

As far as Joseph Smight's legacy, I'd never say that bad behavior invalidates the work of Martin Luther King Jr or JFK. But the thought of a church founded by Joseph Smith routinely disciplining (and even excommunicating) people for sexual sin is just laughable.

So how much worse is Warren Jeffs?

[woot]

Far from it. Others have better information but JS did not produce a lot of progeny even considering Emma. Many years ago, the RLDS used this as evidence that JS did not practice polygamy - where are the children? My understanding is that his non-Emma progeny are very, very few.

So how is that explained? Did JS have slow swimmers? Perhaps he modeled his business time after Onan? Maybe he was marrying pubescent girls so he could talk to them about their emotions.

[All-American]

By the way, another explanation I've heard is that girls in those times married younger. That's bullshit. While there doesn't appear to be census information going back to the 1840's, in 1890, the average age for a woman in the U.S. to marry for the first time was 22.

22 looks pretty close to the average age of the women on that list.

[Non Sequitur]

22 looks pretty close to the average age of the women on that list.

There are 10 teenagers on the list. Taking the average doesn't tell the real story.

[Uncle Ted]

The Church's biggest problem here is that these issues go to the Church's credibility (and also Joseph Smith's credibility as a prophet).

No one would ever argue that Warren Jeffs' behavior makes him less credible.

Many Mormons try to justify or defend Joseph Smith's behavior although there is no excuse.

The other approach is to accept Joseph Smith as a horribly imperfect prophet. Then the question is how imperfect is a prophet allowed to be? Where would you draw the line? Two hundred years generates a distance that makes it easier for people to rationalize, excuse, or come to terms with his behavior.

But imagine a 21st century prophet behaving that way.

My parents kept me very well educated regarding these issues even from a young age, so I have never been surprised by them. I have also never really felt compelled to spend a lot of time praying about the truthfulness of the Church or reading scripture. I care about the Church as an institution but don't really regard it as what it claims to be.

As far as Joseph Smight's legacy, I'd never say that bad behavior invalidates the work of Martin Luther King Jr or JFK. But the thought of a church founded by Joseph Smith routinely disciplining (and even excommunicating) people for sexual sin is just laughable.

So how much worse is Warren Jeffs?

How much worse is our "ally", modern day Saudi Arabia? http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Lates...t-for-marriage Of course, they supply a good part of the world with oil so never mind.

[Uncle Ted]

So how is that explained? Did JS have slow swimmers? Perhaps he modeled his business time after Onan? Maybe he was marrying pubescent girls so he could talk to them about their emotions.

JS had nine children with Emma by age 38 so I don't think he had slow swimmers.

[Moliere]

So how is that explained? Did JS have slow swimmers? Perhaps he modeled his business time after Onan? Maybe he was marrying pubescent girls so he could talk to them about their emotions.

It seems reasonable to state that he likely was not as much of a swinger as people make him out to be. Sure he married a lot of women and some of those women had his children, but it quite likely that he didn't go around every night sleeping with different wives. He was probably more selective about it.

Honestly, the whole sleeping around with other wives part is silly to me. My issue is just with the marriages in general. It seems odd that some LDS will try to discount the whole thing by saying that they were spiritual wives and he didn't sleep with them. I can only imagine the reaction I'd get if I came home one night to MJ and told her I had married someone else but that she shouldn't worry because I'm not going to sleep with them.

Polygamy is effed up and it's effed up that we still believe in it. I think even Turley says in that Swedish meeting that we still believe in it but don't practice it on earth now but we do practice it in the temple.

Also, it was interesting to hear Turley say that JS marrying a 14 year old in 1840 is the same as someone marrying a 21 year old today. Sounds like he's still using some outdated talking points in making his apologetic argument.

[jay santos]

Also, it was interesting to hear Turley say that JS marrying a 14 year old in 1840 is the same as someone marrying a 21 year old today. Sounds like he's still using some outdated talking points in making his apologetic argument.

He used several outdated talking points. A little odd, because you'd expect a guy like him to be current on his apologetics. But overall I don't want to criticize too much because what they did that meeting was pretty groundbreaking.

[SoonerCoug]

So how is that explained? Did JS have slow swimmers? Perhaps he modeled his business time after Onan? Maybe he was marrying pubescent girls so he could talk to them about their emotions.

Lambskin condoms? Did they exist back then? Did JS practice safe sex?

[Pheidippides]

Lambskin condoms? Did they exist back then? Did JS practice safe sex?

Condoms did exist I think. You also have the allegations that Bennett was performing abortions for JS. But the source was Bennett himself, and Bennett was a known scoundrel and charlatan. He's the one source I almost always look at with extreme skepticism

[Uncle Ted]

Also, it was interesting to hear Turley say that JS marrying a 14 year old in 1840 is the same as someone marrying a 21 year old today. Sounds like he's still using some outdated talking points in making his apologetic argument.

He may have been referring to native americans. From some data I have seen somewhere native american women did marry on the young side back then but there isn't a lot of data to support really any conclusions.

But let's not overlook Brigham Young. He married a heck of a lot of women (some as young as 15 or 16 when he was in his 40's), had a crap load of children with them, divorced a good number of them, and still managed to get a great university named after himself. And unlike the Saudis BY wasn't sitting on a huge amount of oil reserves and so he wasn't able to pay out lavish dowries to the fathers for their daughter's hand in marriage. But rather, maybe, gave the family a "revelation" that he was commanded to do so and/or a promise that their daughter would have an eternal life in the highest kingdom, etc, etc. Who cares about those large dowries when it comes to the eternal perspective? Besides having a Brigham Young as a relative by marriage may have saved the family from being assigned to move to Idaho, Arizona, or some other of hell hole of a place to live. A little insurance like that might have been worth a daughter back then.

[Flystripper]

Condoms did exist I think. You also have the allegations that Bennett was performing abortions for JS. But the source was Bennett himself, and Bennett was a known scoundrel and charlatan. He's the one source I almost always look at with extreme skepticism

Yeah kinda like Jose Conseco.