NY Times Article on Dissaffected Swedish Area Authority

[Pelado]

This has to be the case. Ages, polyandry, etc., I can see. To just not know that Joseph practiced polygamy? I have a hard time believing that one.

On my mission to Argentina, someone told us that Joseph practiced polygamy. I told him he must be confusing Joseph with Brigham - that Joseph's only wife was Emma.

Several years later while I was in college, my well-read brother-in-law asked me why Joseph had married women that were already married to other active LDS men. I was a taken aback, but tried to act like I knew what he was talking about. That's the first time that I remember believing that Joseph had practiced plural marriage of any kind.

I've since had conversations about it with my mother, who seems like she wasn't aware until somewhat recently.

[Flystripper]

How did I not know it until I was well into law school?

Yeah. I vaguely knew about polygamy but i believed it was because all of those helpless women lost their husbands in the Mormon battalion. I knew nothing of polyandry.

[Flystripper]

How many people on this board that are perhaps only half-in the church now or maybe even all the way out went on a mission, learned about some of this stuff and managed to shelve it for a while until it became too much? Or perhaps learn something in more detail--e.g., not just that JS had multiple wives but their ages and circumstances and so on--and then that becomes the straw that broke the camel's back? .

Me but prop 8 and mormon response to homosexuals was also a big factor.

[Joe Public]

How did I not know it until I was well into law school?

Same here, and there are enough of us to where people who call us liars or ignoramuses are not taking an honest look at things (at best).

[MarkGrace]

Same here, and there are enough of us to where people who call us liars or ignoramuses are not taking an honest look at things (at best).

I'm not calling anyone a liar or ignoramus. In fact, everyone who has chimed in is only proving my point. Nik and you found out in law school, Pelado a handful of years after his mission, etc. This dude has been a member for ages, has served in an area presidency, etc., and he didn't know about Joseph's polygamy? But I think Sooner's assumption is the correct one. It has to be more about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's polygamy than actually finding out about the practice as portrayed in the article.

[SoonerCoug]

The following is a line by line transcription of the letter by Joseph Smith to Newel K. Whitney, his wife and daughter, dated August 18th, 1842. They were to "burn this letter as soon as you read it," this instruction they did not keep.

LETTER BY JOSEPH SMITH TO NEWEL K. WHITNEY, HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER.

PAGE ONE
LINE TEXT
1 Nauvoo, August 18th 1842
2 Dear, and Beloved, Brother and
3 Sister, Whitney, and & c.--
4 I take this opportunity to communicate,
5 Some of my feelings, privetely at
6 this time, which I want you three
7 Eternaly to keep in your own
8 bosams; for my feelings are so
9 Strong for you Since what has
10 pased lately between us, that the
11 time of my abscence from you
12 Seems so long, and dreary, that
13 it Seems, as if I could not live
if you
14 long in this way; and ^ Three would
15 come and See me in this my lonely
16 retreat, it would afford me great
17 relief, of mind, if those with whom
18 I am alied, do love me, now is the
19 time to afford me succour; in the
20 days of exile, for you know I
21 foretold you of these things. I am
22 now at Carlos Graingers, Just back
23 of Brother Hyrums farm, it is only one
24 mile from town, the nights are
25 very pleasant, indeed, all three of
can
26 you come^ and See me in the
27 fore part of the night, let Brother
28 Whitney come a little a head, and
29 nock at the south East corner of
the
30 the house att ^ window; it is next to
31 the cornfield; I have a room inti-
32 -rely by myself, the whole matter
33 can be attended to with most perfect
know
34 Safty, I ^ it is the will of God that you
me
35 should comfort ^ now in this time
36 of affliction, or not at all, now is the

PAGE TWO
LINE TEXT
1 time or never, but I hav no kneed of saying
2 any such thing, to you, for I know the
3 goodness of your hearts, and that you
4 will do the will of the Lord, when it is
5 made known to you; the only thing
6 to be careful of, is to find out when
7 Emma comes then you cannot be
8 Safe, but when She is not here, there
9 is the most perfect Safty: only be
10 careful to escape observation, as
11 much as possible, I know it is a
12 heroick undertaking; but so much
13 the greater friendship, and the more
will
14 Joy, when I see you I ^ tell you all
15 my plans, I cannot write them on
16 paper, burn this letter as soon as you
17 read it; keep all locked up in
18 your breasts, my life depends up-
19 -on it. one thing I want to see you
to
20 for is ^ git the fulness of my blessing
21 Sealed upon our heads, &c. you
22 will pardon me for my ernest-
this subject
23 -ness on ^ when you consider how
24 lonesome I must be, your good
make
25 feelings know how to ^ every allow
26 -ance for me, I close my letter.
27 I think Emma wont come tonight
28 if she dont dont fail to come to
29 night, I subscribe myself your
and
30 most obedient, ^ affectionate,
31 Companion, and friend.
32 Joseph Smith

[Indy Coug]

And where did you copy this from?

[MarkGrace]

The following is a line by line transcription of the letter by Joseph Smith to Newel K. Whitney, his wife and daughter, dated August 18th, 1842. They were to "burn this letter as soon as you read it," this instruction they did not keep.

LETTER BY JOSEPH SMITH TO NEWEL K. WHITNEY, HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTER.

PAGE ONE
LINE TEXT
1 Nauvoo, August 18th 1842
2 Dear, and Beloved, Brother and
3 Sister, Whitney, and & c.--
4 I take this opportunity to communicate,
5 Some of my feelings, privetely at
6 this time, which I want you three
7 Eternaly to keep in your own
8 bosams; for my feelings are so
9 Strong for you Since what has
10 pased lately between us, that the
11 time of my abscence from you
12 Seems so long, and dreary, that
13 it Seems, as if I could not live
if you
14 long in this way; and ^ Three would
15 come and See me in this my lonely
16 retreat, it would afford me great
17 relief, of mind, if those with whom
18 I am alied, do love me, now is the
19 time to afford me succour; in the
20 days of exile, for you know I
21 foretold you of these things. I am
22 now at Carlos Graingers, Just back
23 of Brother Hyrums farm, it is only one
24 mile from town, the nights are
25 very pleasant, indeed, all three of
can
26 you come^ and See me in the
27 fore part of the night, let Brother
28 Whitney come a little a head, and
29 nock at the south East corner of
the
30 the house att ^ window; it is next to
31 the cornfield; I have a room inti-
32 -rely by myself, the whole matter
33 can be attended to with most perfect
know
34 Safty, I ^ it is the will of God that you
me
35 should comfort ^ now in this time
36 of affliction, or not at all, now is the

PAGE TWO
LINE TEXT
1 time or never, but I hav no kneed of saying
2 any such thing, to you, for I know the
3 goodness of your hearts, and that you
4 will do the will of the Lord, when it is
5 made known to you; the only thing
6 to be careful of, is to find out when
7 Emma comes then you cannot be
8 Safe, but when She is not here, there
9 is the most perfect Safty: only be
10 careful to escape observation, as
11 much as possible, I know it is a
12 heroick undertaking; but so much
13 the greater friendship, and the more
will
14 Joy, when I see you I ^ tell you all
15 my plans, I cannot write them on
16 paper, burn this letter as soon as you
17 read it; keep all locked up in
18 your breasts, my life depends up-
19 -on it. one thing I want to see you
to
20 for is ^ git the fulness of my blessing
21 Sealed upon our heads, &c. you
22 will pardon me for my ernest-
this subject
23 -ness on ^ when you consider how
24 lonesome I must be, your good
make
25 feelings know how to ^ every allow
26 -ance for me, I close my letter.
27 I think Emma wont come tonight
28 if she dont dont fail to come to
29 night, I subscribe myself your
and
30 most obedient, ^ affectionate,
31 Companion, and friend.
32 Joseph Smith

Donuthole's head just exploded!

And where's the shocking part?

[Pelado]

I'm not calling anyone a liar or ignoramus. In fact, everyone who has chimed in is only proving my point. Nik and you found out in law school, Pelado a handful of years after his mission, etc. This dude has been a member for ages, has served in an area presidency, etc., and he didn't know about Joseph's polygamy? But I think Sooner's assumption is the correct one. It has to be more about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's polygamy than actually finding out about the practice as portrayed in the article.

I think part of it was when he started to hear it from what he considered credible sources. It was easy for me to dismiss a random Argentine's assertion of Joseph's polygamy as uninformed anti-Mormon rhetoric. It was much harder for me to write off my active LDS brother-in-law.

He probably did hear all manner of accusations about the church, but it may not have fazed him so long as the accusations came from non-credible sources.

[SoonerCoug]

Donuthole's head just exploded!

And where's the shocking part?

I think the context is what makes it shocking. He had married their daughter a few weeks before he wrote this letter.

[Pelado]

I think the context is what makes it shocking. He had married their daughter a few weeks before he wrote this letter.

How old was she at the time of the marriage? And I'll repeat Indy's question - where's the source?

[Solon]

How old was she at the time of the marriage? And I'll repeat Indy's question - where's the source?

She was 17.


George Albert Smith Family Papers, Manuscript 36, Box 1, Early Smith Documents, 1731-1849, Folder 18, in the Special Collections, Western Americana, Marriott Library, University of Utah, Salt Lake City, Utah.


Love Letter asking for a secret tryst with a young secret wife: http://user.xmission.com/~research/family/strange.htm

Not a Love Letter, but just a letter to the Whitneys. The demand for secrecy was made to protect Joseph's life: http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smit...jessee.539-540

[Joe Public]

I'm not calling anyone a liar or ignoramus. In fact, everyone who has chimed in is only proving my point. Nik and you found out in law school, Pelado a handful of years after his mission, etc. This dude has been a member for ages, has served in an area presidency, etc., and he didn't know about Joseph's polygamy? But I think Sooner's assumption is the correct one. It has to be more about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's polygamy than actually finding out about the practice as portrayed in the article.

To be clear, I wasn't trying to imply that you or any specific other person on the board was doing so (well, maybe Indy ). I have heard it at church, though.

I don't have the time right now to flesh out the reasons, but I can see a guy like this or the former Tulsa temple president, based on their background, geography, ancestry, faithfulness, church era in which they reached adolescence and adulthood, etc., getting pretty far without having this stuff come up. Like Bushman says in the article, it just wasn't talked about.

[Moliere]

Indy is not talking about exposure to various interesting points in Mormon history as a Saint in Sweden, but about the time Elder Mattson served as a missionary in the UK. Indy cited his experience in the UK, which seems more relevant that anything missionaries might encounter from the French. About the time I served, a missionary was kidnapped in the UK by his girlfriend, creating a lot of good fodder for the tabloid press.

Okay, that does make a bit more sense, but still I wouldn't have read any of that stuff or really listened to any of it since I'd have deemed it anti-Mormon and was obviously told to avoid it. I also didn't learn of any of hte BoM historicity stuff until I was at least 30 and that was mostly influenced by CB. I doubt Mattson is a frequent poster on any internet chat site and probably spent little time on the internet when he was in church leadership positions.

[Moliere]

I'm not calling anyone a liar or ignoramus. In fact, everyone who has chimed in is only proving my point. Nik and you found out in law school, Pelado a handful of years after his mission, etc. This dude has been a member for ages, has served in an area presidency, etc., and he didn't know about Joseph's polygamy? But I think Sooner's assumption is the correct one. It has to be more about the circumstances surrounding Joseph's polygamy than actually finding out about the practice as portrayed in the article.

Just out of curiosity, can anyone post a link to any church produced document (lesson manual, GA book, CES course, movie, video clip, online resource, etc.) that discusses Joseph's polygamy? I'm really just curious if one exists.