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Thread: Self-Driving Cars

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    It doesn't seem that far fetched that hackers could gain control of your car now and shut down some systems, causing a crash.
    They can and our tax dollars funded the research!

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...-your-vehicle/

    We can have self-driving cars, onboard compute systems with wifi, satellite and bluetooth. Or we can have security. It's pretty clear we can't have the former with the latter.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Or an airplane.
    A computer security expert hacked into a plane's in-flight entertainment system and made it briefly fly sideways by telling one of the engines to go into climb mode.
    So the in-flight entertainment system is connected to the plane's flight control system? That seems like a smart design.
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by YOhio View Post
    They can and our tax dollars funded the research!

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...-your-vehicle/

    We can have self-driving cars, onboard compute systems with wifi, satellite and bluetooth. Or we can have security. It's pretty clear we can't have the former with the latter.
    We can have both. We just need better computers... http://breakingdefense.com/2012/12/d...-better-secur/

    Our tax dollars are also funding this too!
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  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    We can have both. We just need better computers... http://breakingdefense.com/2012/12/d...-better-secur/

    Our tax dollars are also funding this too!
    I'm glad our tax dollars are funding this research, but it sure would be nice if DARPA had some competent contractors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    This creeps me out, but then I realized that lots of cars have wifi connections now. It doesn't seem that far fetched that hackers could gain control of your car now and shut down some systems, causing a crash.
    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Or an airplane.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    So the in-flight entertainment system is connected to the plane's flight control system? That seems like a smart design.
    A computer security expert hacked into a plane's in-flight entertainment system and made it briefly fly sideways by telling one of the engines to go into climb mode.
    Has anyone taken one of these new Southwest flights with an empty cockpit, e.g. no pilots? Seems really promising. Can't wait for full adoption.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Has anyone taken one of these new Southwest flights with an empty cockpit, e.g. no pilots? Seems really promising. Can't wait for full adoption.
    As long as it makes my trip to utah or Vegas $150 cheaper i love it

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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    Has anyone taken one of these new Southwest flights with an empty cockpit, e.g. no pilots? Seems really promising. Can't wait for full adoption.
    I like having unmanned cockpits on those new Southwest MAX 8's... The idea of having an all-female crew is hot!

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  8. #38

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    pssst robots are already flying our planes
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  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    pssst robots are already flying our planes
    Yeah, is this news?

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    pssst robots are already flying our planes
    So that whole Scully thing was a hoax? Like the moon landings?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    So that whole Scully thing was a hoax? Like the moon landings?
    Scully IS the robot.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    I’m surprised this hasn’t been posted yet. Las Vegas' self-driving bus crashes in first hour of service - Engadget
    https://apple.news/ASzlpGB3BR22wJbVj...R22wJbVja3B1Rw


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    So that whole Scully thing was a hoax?
    People (en masse) won't ever fly in a airplane without a pilot for that precise reason... shit happens. Air traffic is about as closed a system as you can find, but still there is an amount of unpredictability that requires immediate human intervention. Yet, here (and elsewhere) you stumble across these rosy (and completely idiotic) predictions of eliminating the automobile driver in the complex, dynamic, and erratic public transportation system that includes motorized, bicycle, and pedestrian traffic.

    You have probably already heard the classic example of a shopping cart full of groceries versus the baby stroller with a child in it. If the self-driving car is in a no-win situation where it will hit one or the other, then how will the program know which is the right thing to hit? That situation (and countless others) like the Sully example you specified, is more than enough reason to give anyone pause occupying the same roadway with autonomous vehicles (as a driver, a cyclist, or a pedestrian).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-ute View Post
    I’m surprised this hasn’t been posted yet. Las Vegas' self-driving bus crashes in first hour of service - Engadget
    https://apple.news/ASzlpGB3BR22wJbVj...R22wJbVja3B1Rw


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    That's funny. Looks like it was the truck driver's fault but any human driving the shuttle would have avoided hte accident by moving out of the way or honking the horn.

    I know people think the majority of cars will be self-driving in less than 5 years, but I'm skeptical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Walter Sobchak View Post
    People (en masse) won't ever fly in a airplane without a pilot for that precise reason... shit happens. Air traffic is about as closed a system as you can find, but still there is an amount of unpredictability that requires immediate human intervention. Yet, here (and elsewhere) you stumble across these rosy (and completely idiotic) predictions of eliminating the automobile driver in the complex, dynamic, and erratic public transportation system that includes motorized, bicycle, and pedestrian traffic.

    You have probably already heard the classic example of a shopping cart full of groceries versus the baby stroller with a child in it. If the self-driving car is in a no-win situation where it will hit one or the other, then how will the program know which is the right thing to hit? That situation (and countless others) like the Sully example you specified, is more than enough reason to give anyone pause occupying the same roadway with autonomous vehicles (as a driver, a cyclist, or a pedestrian).
    I've said this before, but I'll repeat that I don't think self-driving cars will exist on the roads as they are today. I think a certain protocol has to be invented and implemented on the roadways to allow for it. I'm not saying it'll be like a train on a set of rails, but lane markings, intersections, construction, etc. will all have to have some conformity on how they are marked and cars will be programmed to read that marking. You also have issues with heavy rainfall or snow that will make it difficult as well. There are a lot of places in Houston that don't even have paint markers for lanes and they rely on small reflectors that aren't currently picked up by current lane sensing cameras.

    Autonomous cars are coming but I doubt when they get here they look anything like the current Tesla or Google vehicles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I've said this before, but I'll repeat that I don't think self-driving cars will exist on the roads as they are today. I think a certain protocol has to be invented and implemented on the roadways to allow for it. I'm not saying it'll be like a train on a set of rails, but lane markings, intersections, construction, etc. will all have to have some conformity on how they are marked and cars will be programmed to read that marking. You also have issues with heavy rainfall or snow that will make it difficult as well. There are a lot of places in Houston that don't even have paint markers for lanes and they rely on small reflectors that aren't currently picked up by current lane sensing cameras.

    Autonomous cars are coming but I doubt when they get here they look anything like the current Tesla or Google vehicles.
    Not that difficult to program autonomous vehicles to manage all the situations you note; it's already happening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    Not that difficult to program autonomous vehicles to manage all the situations you note; it's already happening.
    It must be difficult since it's taking a long time to program them right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    Not that difficult to program autonomous vehicles to manage all the situations you note; it's already happening.
    Yes it is.

    Walter is a programmer so he gets it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    It must be difficult since it's taking a long time to program them right.
    I don't understand what you are saying. Just because you don't see it deployed doesn't mean it hasn't been done and the issues addressed. Obviously uniform lane markings will make it easier for the vehicles, but it doesn't mean that they will be necessary.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yes it is.

    Walter is a programmer so he gets it.
    I am not so sure that the impediments to human judgment that Walter points to will not eventually(and soon) be seen as acceptable trade-offs for autonomous vehicles. Will pedestrians or cyclists be victims of autonomous vehicles? Probably so at some point. But will the rate of such incidents be equal to or greater than the rate of incidents involving dumb ass moves by human drivers? I seriously doubt it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    I am not so sure that the impediments to human judgment that Walter points to will not eventually(and soon) be seen as acceptable trade-offs for autonomous vehicles. Will pedestrians or cyclists be victims of autonomous vehicles? Probably so at some point. But will the rate of such incidents be equal to or greater than the rate of incidents involving dumb ass moves by human drivers? I seriously doubt it.
    It goes far beyond that one example.

    People almost always overstate the reach of technology when predicting the future (where is my &&#@*@ jetpack?). I can certainly see how we will get cruise control that is more and more automated, but to the point that we replace drivers and remove steering wheels? nfw.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It goes far beyond that one example.

    People almost always overstate the reach of technology when predicting the future (where is my &&#@*@ jetpack?). I can certainly see how we will get cruise control that is more and more automated, but to the point that we replace drivers and remove steering wheels? nfw.
    Well, I guess that seems like a different issue. You had referred to Walter getting it as a programmer and, in reading his post, he talked about how most of us would be hesitant to share the road with autonomous vehicles (not specifying with or without steering wheels) due to their inability to exercise human judgment (groceries vs. baby as cargo) or human creativity in emergencies (Scully). While I think he is probably correct, as I said, I also think that those failures are likely to be acceptable risks if we simultaneously eliminate drunk, distracted, dumb, poorly skilled, aged, and impaired drivers from the roads. Nothing is going to be perfect, the question is which set of problems and risks do you accept?
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Well, I guess that seems like a different issue. You had referred to Walter getting it as a programmer and, in reading his post, he talked about how most of us would be hesitant to share the road with autonomous vehicles (not specifying with or without steering wheels) due to their inability to exercise human judgment (groceries vs. baby as cargo) or human creativity in emergencies (Scully). While I think he is probably correct, as I said, I also think that those failures are likely to be acceptable risks if we simultaneously eliminate drunk, distracted, dumb, poorly skilled, aged, and impaired drivers from the roads. Nothing is going to be perfect, the question is which set of problems and risks do you accept?
    Do you ever see yourself in a pilot-less jet? I don't think so.

    It is not just a case of balancing risks. It is also a case of surrendering an incredibly convenient and fundamental capability: piloting a vehicle wherever you want.

    Good grief, we can't even let go of our guns in spite of mass shootings and you think people will willingly surrender driver licenses?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Do you ever see yourself in a pilot-less jet? I don't think so.

    It is not just a case of balancing risks. It is also a case of surrendering an incredibly convenient and fundamental capability: piloting a vehicle wherever you want.

    Good grief, we can't even let go of our guns in spite of mass shootings and you think people will willingly surrender driver licenses?
    ?? I think you are talking about completely different things.

    First, I haven't mentioned aircraft. That's a different issue.

    Second, I don't think the gun analogy holds up very well. But let's use it, for a moment. Yes, I think that just like the ownership, possession and use of guns has been HIGHLY regulated and limited, I can also see the ownership, possession and use of non-autonomous vehicles being heavily regulated and limited in the future.

    Third, what do you suggest that autonomous vehicles will not take you "wherever you want"? I don't understand your point. They will go anywhere your regular car goes, but you wont be turning the wheel. I can see many people willing to accept that.

    Fourth, you aren't addressing the response I made to the point you highlighted in Walter's original post. Look, we tend to see the drawbacks in autonomous vehicles (and they are plentiful) and we romanticize the ability of humans to make judgment calls and be creative in emergencies, which does happen, but I think we forget to properly emphasize all the incredibly stupid things humans do on the road, including create many or all of the emergencies that we are worried about autonomous vehicles responding to. Eliminate human error and you are left with autonomous error. Neither one is great, but my guess is both can be acceptable.

    Finally, who suggested that we would never be able to drive at all anymore? Not me. Thats a straw man, and I know you must recognize it as you love to call that out in others.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    ?? I think you are talking about completely different things.

    First, I haven't mentioned aircraft. That's a different issue.

    Second, I don't think the gun analogy holds up very well. But let's use it, for a moment. Yes, I think that just like the ownership, possession and use of guns has been HIGHLY regulated and limited, I can also see the ownership, possession and use of non-autonomous vehicles being heavily regulated and limited in the future.

    Third, what do you suggest that autonomous vehicles will not take you "wherever you want"? I don't understand your point. They will go anywhere your regular car goes, but you wont be turning the wheel. I can see many people willing to accept that.

    Fourth, you aren't addressing the response I made to the point you highlighted in Walter's original post. Look, we tend to see the drawbacks in autonomous vehicles (and they are plentiful) and we romanticize the ability of humans to make judgment calls and be creative in emergencies, which does happen, but I think we forget to properly emphasize all the incredibly stupid things humans do on the road, including create many or all of the emergencies that we are worried about autonomous vehicles responding to. Eliminate human error and you are left with autonomous error. Neither one is great, but my guess is both can be acceptable.

    Finally, who suggested that we would never be able to drive at all anymore? Not me. Thats a straw man, and I know you must recognize it as you love to call that out in others.
    It’s funny how seriously you take these things.

    Those issues that I mentioned are in addition to the technological problems, which are huge.

    Lots of people are predicting the end of autonomous driving in the next few years. Maybe you haven’t noticed.

    If by self driving cars, all you are referring to is incremental increases in cruise control type driving, then I agree with you. That is not where most of the discussion is these days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It’s funny how seriously you take these things.

    Those issues that I mentioned are in addition to the technological problems, which are huge.

    Lots of people are predicting the end of autonomous driving in the next few years. Maybe you haven’t noticed.

    If by self driving cars, all you are referring to is incremental increases in cruise control type driving, then I agree with you. That is not where most of the discussion is these days.
    It's funny how difficult it seems to be for you to sometimes stay on the topic. But I guess it's good we are each amused, in our own way. I guess I don't know where most of the discussion is these days. I admit it. But I know where it isn't, and that's in your responses here.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Do you ever see yourself in a pilot-less jet? I don't think so.
    I have a friend that flies for American. He said that FedEx is getting close to pilot-less jets and their pilots are getting worried about job security. My friend isn't worried about his job, however. I never got him to quantify "getting close".
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    It's funny how difficult it seems to be for you to sometimes stay on the topic. But I guess it's good we are each amused, in our own way. I guess I don't know where most of the discussion is these days. I admit it. But I know where it isn't, and that's in your responses here.
    Lol. Ok.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It’s funny how seriously you take these things.

    Those issues that I mentioned are in addition to the technological problems, which are huge.

    Lots of people are predicting the end of autonomous driving in the next few years. Maybe you haven’t noticed.

    If by self driving cars, all you are referring to is incremental increases in cruise control type driving, then I agree with you. That is not where most of the discussion is these days.
    I test drove a car today that has lane assist and adaptive cruise control. It was pretty cool. The lane assist worked most of the time but it didn’t work when lane markings were missing or severely faded. The tech today is great but it’s not close to being autonomous.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    I test drove a car today that has lane assist and adaptive cruise control. It was pretty cool. The lane assist worked most of the time but it didn’t work when lane markings were missing or severely faded. The tech today is great but it’s not close to being autonomous.
    Did you pull the trigger?
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