What bothers you more? Benghazi or the IRS scandal?

[Indy Coug]

As far as I can tell, no one has died from these targeted IRS audits, so it would be Benghazi by a country mile.

[Blueintheface]

As far as I can tell, no one has died from these targeted IRS audits, so it would be Benghazi by a country mile.

It's tragic how thoroughly our government has failed in foreign policy in my lifetime. We just can't seem to learn from mistakes of the past both in execution of the policy and the aftermath that inevitably follows.

[VirginiaCougar]

As I stated earlier, I still don't understand why the Obama administration tried to cover up the Benghazi event. My opinion is that they decided they would rather deal with the fallout of the lies and coverup than deal with the fallout of dealing with a terrorist attack for which they were not ready before the election. I hope it burns them up but to be honest policy is a function of ideology and to the left there is a core ideology is that their ability to reason and win over hearts and minds is more successful at building peace than overwhelming firepower. On occasion such a perspective is blown to smithereens. This was one of those cases. I would prefer the Administration be honest but to be honest I believe this happens even if you think you have overwhelming firepower. The world is just a nasty place sometimes and it gets real nasty far more frequently in lawless third world wastelands. I don't wish to mitigate the deaths of 4 Americans, but shit really does happen. Obviously the coverup will linger on and burn the Obama Administration to the delight of many of the right.

However, the IRS targeting of conservative groups and individuals goes to the core of social contract between those who govern and the those who are governed. Right after the President goes about on his fluffy college speaking tour telling the world not to be cynical along comes this crap. Right after Harry Reid gives his passioned plea that government is fundamentally good - along comes this. I can live with mistakes, which is what I credit the Benghazi event to be - a mistake. I would prefer honesty about mistakes, and while I will enjoy the administration squirming wrt Benghazi, I have come to expect the coverup and write it off as politics as usual. However, the IRS issue really, really bothers me. I don't buy that it wasn't politically motivated and I don't believe the administration was not aware of it at some level, if not encouraging it. I hope the bastards burn about it.

My biggest irritation is the concept of scandal. Also the utter hypocracy being employed by some in both cases. Both Benghazi and the IRS incident represent serious mistakes. Again, they represent errors, mistakes of judgement, etc. My arguments below do not change those facts nor is it an attempt to hide them. They should be addressed and are fair game for public discussion.

But lets consider what we have. In the case of Benghazi, there were errors of judgement made at the State Department. They made a judgement call and it was the wrong one. People were killed as a result. Four State Department officials lost their job as they probably should have give the seriousness of the error. We have known all the details of what happened since the scathing report authored by Thomas Pickering came out. It is rightly very harsh and specific in describing the mistakes.

However, Benghazi isn't a scandal. The scandal portion is a political construction. No one at State purposefully sought to kill officials. They had protection, although clearly insufficient. They made a judgement call about how quickly backup forces could arrive and if it would make a difference. Those kinds of decisions are made everyday and if made in good faith (there is no evidence to the contrary) and the decision is wrong, you are subject to the consequences but it isn't a scandal.

We've now had 9 hearings rehashing what everybody already knows. Even in the last hearing, nothing came out that I didn't already read in the report/public info. Huffing and puffing that this is worse than Watergate is absurd and nothing more than an attempt to undermine Hillary's 2014 presidential campaign. I don't plan on supporting her (I supported Romney last election), but what the GOP is doing now with Benghazi is the epitome of hypocracy and political nonsense. Again, I am not saying that the issue should be left alone - exactly the opposite. It is a valid story and worthy of review. But that isn't what is happening here. Pickering and others have been very explicit where decisions were made and where responsibility lies. While I don't plan on supporting any of her future political moves, Hillary is being subject to a political smear campaign because the GOP is fearful it won't be able to run a strong enough candidate against Hillary next time (Another "gift" of the tea party movement). I am so disappointed in my political party these days. Working in politics most of my adult like, I've met good and bad politicians but these tea party folks like Chaffetz and Lee are the worst, most dishonest in their efforts. Not surprisingly, you see guys like that at the forefront of these sorts of things.

The IRS case is interesting. They admitted their mistake and should have. It is worth asking why they did it. Every indication is that it was the decision made at a local level in an office in Cincinnati. The law says that non-profits can't advocate for or support specific candidates. This law is abused wildly. The individual, trying to get a grasp on it decided to highlight applications using "tea party," etc. Clearly conservative groups. It is wrong to target conservatives or any group. But it is also true that almost all of those new applications were coming in right before elections (when they shouldn't be supporting candidates) with the overwhelming majoity of them being Conservative in nature. If you want to catch most of the bad applications in that situation, how would you do it? Interestingly, I'll bet money that most of those groups planned on actively breaking the law that cycle. In fact, they complained to conservative members of Congress for that very reason.

So in the end, the "scandal" is that this one person was actually doing her job? I wish she would do her job more and catch all those Conservative AND Liberal groups that are flouting that law. The American political system would certainly be served by stopping all that illegal campaign money. Obviously, it was a mistake to not go after all groups, but again - there was primarily only one site that was actively applying back then, the policy has already been audited and altered (rightly so). The scandal here is also just slimy politics.

American politics is in a really bad place right now. Ideology and ideological battles are replacing good governance and compromise. In the end, everyone is just thrown in the muck and American Constitutional governance is replaced with some peverse political sitcom.

[Blueintheface]

I won't parse your American Manifesto as others might VC, except to say I think you make valid points, a few of which I agree with.

[Surfah]

I won't parse your American Manifesto as others might VC, except to say I think you make valid points, a few of which I agree with.

Is Virginiacoug related to Calicoug? They sure read alike.

[Pelado]

My biggest irritation is the concept of scandal. Also the utter hypocracy being employed by some in both cases. Both Benghazi and the IRS incident represent serious mistakes. Again, they represent errors, mistakes of judgement, etc. My arguments below do not change those facts nor is it an attempt to hide them. They should be addressed and are fair game for public discussion.

But lets consider what we have. In the case of Benghazi, there were errors of judgement made at the State Department. They made a judgement call and it was the wrong one. People were killed as a result. Four State Department officials lost their job as they probably should have give the seriousness of the error. We have known all the details of what happened since the scathing report authored by Thomas Pickering came out. It is rightly very harsh and specific in describing the mistakes.

However, Benghazi isn't a scandal. The scandal portion is a political construction. No one at State purposefully sought to kill officials. They had protection, although clearly insufficient. They made a judgement call about how quickly backup forces could arrive and if it would make a difference. Those kinds of decisions are made everyday and if made in good faith (there is no evidence to the contrary) and the decision is wrong, you are subject to the consequences but it isn't a scandal.

We've now had 9 hearings rehashing what everybody already knows. Even in the last hearing, nothing came out that I didn't already read in the report/public info. Huffing and puffing that this is worse than Watergate is absurd and nothing more than an attempt to undermine Hillary's 2014 presidential campaign. I don't plan on supporting her (I supported Romney last election), but what the GOP is doing now with Benghazi is the epitome of hypocracy and political nonsense. Again, I am not saying that the issue should be left alone - exactly the opposite. It is a valid story and worthy of review. But that isn't what is happening here. Pickering and others have been very explicit where decisions were made and where responsibility lies. While I don't plan on supporting any of her future political moves, Hillary is being subject to a political smear campaign because the GOP is fearful it won't be able to run a strong enough candidate against Hillary next time (Another "gift" of the tea party movement). I am so disappointed in my political party these days. Working in politics most of my adult like, I've met good and bad politicians but these tea party folks like Chaffetz and Lee are the worst, most dishonest in their efforts. Not surprisingly, you see guys like that at the forefront of these sorts of things.

The IRS case is interesting. They admitted their mistake and should have. It is worth asking why they did it. Every indication is that it was the decision made at a local level in an office in Cincinnati. The law says that non-profits can advocate for or support specific candidates. This law is abused wildly. The individual, trying to get a grasp on it decided to highlight applications using "tea party," etc. Clearly conservative groups. It is wrong to target conservatives or any group. But it is also true that almost all of those new applications were coming in right before elections (when they shouldn't be supporting candidates) with the overwhelming majoity of them being Conservative in nature. If you want to catch most of the bad applications in that situation, how would you do it? Interestingly, I'll bet money that most of those groups planned on actively breaking the law that cycle. In fact, they complained to conservative members of Congress for that very reason.

So in the end, the "scandal" is that this one person was actually doing her job? I wish she would do her job more and catch all those Conservative AND Liberal groups that are flouting that law. The American political system would certainly be served by stopping all that illegal campaign money. Obviously, it was a mistake to not go after all groups, but again - there was primarily only one group that was doing it right then, the policy has already been audited and altered (rightly so). The scandal here is also just slimy politics.

American politics is in a really bad place right now. Ideology and ideological battles are replacing good governance and compromise. In the end, everyone is just thrown in the muck and American Constitutional governance is replaced with some peverse political sitcom.

They only admitted their mistakes and apologized to get in front of the forthcoming Inspector General report. Without the IG investigation in response to the tea party groups' complaints, the IRS would not have had to say a word.

As for your bet, my understanding was that you're considered innocent until proven guilty in this country. The IRS, and other federal and state agencies, don't need to target conservatives AND liberals. They instead need to apply the laws without regard to whether the groups are conservative, liberal, libertarian, communist, or anything else.

I reserve the right to comment on your Benghazi commentary a little later.

[Applejack]

All of you sound like a bunch of wimpy democrats! Complaining about "taking threats seriously", the unfairness of the IRS being mean to some fly-by-night startup community organizers - you should be ashamed of yourselves. True free-market patriots care about two whistleblowers: Mr. NYSE and Sr. NASDAQ. Obama has made you all rich. Show some gratitude.

[YOhio]

I'm not surprised by the corrupt bureaucrats in Cincinnati. Tough to trust anyone from Ohio's 3C's.

[myboynoah]

Okay, what if the IRS scandal is just a simple case of profiling? These "patriot" and "tea party" groups may be sketching qualifiers and need extra scruitiny. Maybe they found one didn't qualify, so they thought, "Hey, these patriot and tea party guys are trying to skirt the law, so if it says patriot or tea party, it makes sense to take a closer look."

Conservatives love profiling, so they're getting a dose of their own medicine.

The should have gone with "progressive" and "tree party."

[Color Me Badd Fan]

All of you sound like a bunch of wimpy democrats! Complaining about "taking threats seriously", the unfairness of the IRS being mean to some fly-by-night startup community organizers - you should be ashamed of yourselves. True free-market patriots care about two whistleblowers: Mr. NYSE and Sr. NASDAQ. Obama has made you all rich. Show some gratitude.

It's a great time to invest, everyone should put their money in the market right now.

Anyway, the Dow reached around 11,700 in January 2000. We were in a recession by the end of the year. It next peaked at around 14,100 in October 2007, we were already in a recession. The Dow increasing by 1000 points in five and a half years isn't something to crow about. The Dow increasing by 3400 points in 13 and a half years isn't something to proud of. That's not exactly 1987-2000. Of course, if one was smart and put their money in the market in the aftermath of the September 2008 meltdown, they'd be doing quite well. The key is not to be the proverbial shoe shine boy (now the proverbial Starbucks barista who fancies himself/herself an investor).

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Okay, what if the IRS scandal is just a simple case of profiling? These "patriot" and "tea party" groups may be sketching qualifiers and need extra scruitiny. Maybe they found one didn't qualify, so they thought, "Hey, these patriot and tea party guys are trying to skirt the law, so if it says patriot or tea party, it makes sense to take a closer look."

Conservatives love profiling, so they're getting a dose of their own medicine.

The should have gone with "progressive" and "tree party."

The news media always assumes these mass shootings/murders are performed by some right wing nut. And they're continuously wrong (at least since OKC in 1995). That says much more about the media than conservatives. These tea party groups aren't looking to break the law, have you seen these people? They're a bunch of rv-owning middle-aged people from Kansas and Nebraska. There could be inadvertent law breaking occurring -- things that may violate the non-profit group regulations, but not there's not going to be any more of a tendency at these groups than other political groups.

If there was a huge regulatory agency in charge of making sure riff raff weren't taking shits on cop cars, I would hope they were closely watching Occupy Wall Street groups since they've shown a tendency to take shits on cop cars. But perhaps that's just me and my prejudice and my belief that Occupy Wall Street types seem to like to drop deuces any time and anywhere.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

http://www.propublica.org/article/ir...fidential-docs

As I mentioned above, the scandal might not be so much the IRS bureaucrats picking out conservative groups to audit and hold up their tax-exempt status applications. That can be easily explained as systemic bias and my suspicion is that's exactly what happened. I can't imagine someone in the White House directing that this happen, though stranger things have happened.

On the other hand, it appears as if the IRS was more than willing to hand out confidential information. They disclosed only nine 501(c)(4) applications that hadn't been approved (along with applications that had been approved), all nine of the applications that hadn't been approved (and were supposed to be confidential) were from conservative groups. What will be interesting here is not only who released the information, but who sought out the information, who received the information and how the information was used. I'm not sure it will be an indictment of the executive branch, but I think it will be an indictment of the out of control administrative state. Administrative bloat and abuse of administrative power is not particularly the pet issue of conservatives, but it should be. Not only do the promulgate administrative law that would never pass political muster, but apparently they go after groups they find politically disagreeable.

[il Padrino Ute]

More info related to the IRS scandal.

[Uncle Ted]

However, Benghazi isn't a scandal. The scandal portion is a political construction. No one at State purposefully sought to kill officials. They had protection, although clearly insufficient. They made a judgement call about how quickly backup forces could arrive and if it would make a difference. Those kinds of decisions are made everyday and if made in good faith (there is no evidence to the contrary) and the decision is wrong, you are subject to the consequences but it isn't a scandal.

The right decision would have been to have tried to bring in backup forces as quickly as possible. If they were too late then, well, they would have known at least tried to send help. In addition, changing the talking points to imply that it was nothing more than a random attack was a bad decision as well. Like the IRS scandal that was clearly politically motivated and from the top.

You are right, however. These kind of f'ed up decisions are made everyday by this admistration. For example, now we have the justice department spying on AP reporters' phone calls. WTF?

[Uncle Ted]

All of you sound like a bunch of wimpy democrats! Complaining about "taking threats seriously", the unfairness of the IRS being mean to some fly-by-night startup community organizers - you should be ashamed of yourselves. True free-market patriots care about two whistleblowers: Mr. NYSE and Sr. NASDAQ. Obama has made you all rich. Show some gratitude.

Yes, I plan to make a small donation to the democratic party on my tax return every year... so my tax return is not selected for an audit.