Is it doctrine or culture that keeps women from being ordained?

[UVACoug]

I hesitate to ask this question here, but is there anyone that has done any research on this issue? Have there ever been any doctrinal/scriptural statements that priesthood ordination is reserved exclusively for men? I'm not talking about what happens in the temple (so don't bother bringing that up). I am talking about blessing the sacrament and the laying on of hands.

Is this really an issue similar to blacks in the priesthood, where it is a practice that could and was changed? Have there been scriptural/doctrinal statements that distinguish gender from race with regard to priesthood?

I am not aware of any such doctrine. The proclamation on the family talks about different roles for men and women, which I accept ... but it doesn't say anything about priesthood.

[Harry Tic]

I hesitate to ask this question here, but is there anyone that has done any research on this issue? Have there ever been any doctrinal/scriptural statements that priesthood ordination is reserved exclusively for men? I'm not talking about what happens in the temple (so don't bother bringing that up). I am talking about blessing the sacrament and the laying on of hands.

Is this really an issue similar to blacks in the priesthood, where it is a practice that could and was changed? Have there been scriptural/doctrinal statements that distinguish gender from race with regard to priesthood?

I am not aware of any such doctrine. The proclamation on the family talks about different roles for men and women, which I accept ... but it doesn't say anything about priesthood.

I guess the answer to that question might depend on whether you think that there is a principled distinction to be made between scripture and extrapolations from scripture made by general authorities.

[UVACoug]

I guess the answer to that question might depend on whether you think that there is a principled distinction to be made between scripture and extrapolations from scripture made by general authorities.

Assume that I don't.

[clackamascoug]

I thought it interesting that they went to great lengths in making a video of Mary Fielding Smith "bringing the Elders into her home," as if was to show that her laying on of hands in the great Oxen Miracle of '47 was a one time thing, and that she really did rely upon the Elders of the Church for her everyday Priesthood needs.

[SoonerCoug]

The reason they are making a big deal out of women not needing the priesthood is because they know women ought to have the priesthood.

The focus on women just lends more credence to the Ordain Women group. If anything happens to anyone in that group. the Church is going to get really bad national publicity.

The Church was so good about the Book of Mormon Musical--choosing to advertise in the playbill and give a bland, generic response to the media. But when it comes to their own members, they screw it up. The Church spokesperson's statement was absurd--saying that since Jesus didn't give women the priesthood, women don't need it. I'm also willing to bet that none of the apostles were chinese or black, but that doesn't mean crap.

I have to believe that some of these leaders (e.g. Packer) are either unintelligent, out of touch, or both.

[All-American]

The reason they are making a big deal out of women not needing the priesthood is because they know women ought to have the priesthood.

The focus on women just lends more credence to the Ordain Women group. If anything happens to anyone in that group. the Church is going to get really bad national publicity.

The Church was so good about the Book of Mormon Musical--choosing to advertise in the playbill and give a bland, generic response to the media. But when it comes to their own members, they screw it up. The Church spokesperson's statement was absurd--saying that since Jesus didn't give women the priesthood, women don't need it. I'm also willing to bet that none of the apostles were chinese or black, but that doesn't mean crap.

I have to believe that some of these leaders (e.g. Packer) are either unintelligent, out of touch, or both.

If I had to guess, I imagine Chinese were harder to come by in ancient Israel than women.

[Bo Diddley]

If I had to guess, I imagine Chinese were harder to come by in ancient Israel than women.

[pellegrino]

Assume that I don't.

then I'll assume you already know the answer to the question.

Having searched the canonized scriptures, I cannot find anything other than traditional chauvinistic language preferences (using he as a generic pronoun instead of gender neutral language) that leads me to believe that the sex of a priesthood holder matters.

However, if we look at the historical record and read about the organization of the Relief Society, it's pretty clear that Joseph Smith intended it to be a female priesthood. This interpretation is strengthened by the fact that Brigham Young disbanded Society shortly after being chosen to lead and that several years later when women approached him he berated them and said there would be nothing like what Joseph had started.

In BY's defense, (can't believe I'm saying that) he did allow for and encourage women to bless and anoint each other in times of sickness or distress. That was the closest we've ever come to having women priesthood holders.

We

[Tex]

then I'll assume you already know the answer to the question.

Having searched the canonized scriptures, I cannot find anything other than traditional chauvinistic language preferences (using he as a generic pronoun instead of gender neutral language) that leads me to believe that the sex of a priesthood holder matters.

However, if we look at the historical record and read about the organization of the Relief Society, it's pretty clear that Joseph Smith intended it to be a female priesthood. This interpretation is strengthened by the fact that Brigham Young disbanded Society shortly after being chosen to lead and that several years later when women approached him he berated them and said there would be nothing like what Joseph had started.

In BY's defense, (can't believe I'm saying that) he did allow for and encourage women to bless and anoint each other in times of sickness or distress. That was the closest we've ever come to having women priesthood holders.

We

Were Brigham Young and/or Joseph Smith to suddenly appear in the modern LDS church, the one thing we can confidently expect they would say about it is, "Stop asking me what I think, and listen to the living prophet."

[jay santos]

Were Brigham Young and/or Joseph Smith to suddenly appear in the modern LDS church, the one thing we can confidently expect they would say about it is, "Stop asking me what I think, and listen to the living prophet."

Hmm, you sure see it differently than I do. Brigham would defer to Joseph, but I just don't see Joseph deferring to anyone.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Hmm, you sure see it differently than I do. Brigham would defer to Joseph, but I just don't see Joseph deferring to anyone.

And JS would be asking BY, WTF DID YOU DO TO MY CHURCH?????

[Tex]

Hmm, you sure see it differently than I do. Brigham would defer to Joseph, but I just don't see Joseph deferring to anyone.

There's a commonly known story where Joseph supported Brigham's view that he "would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books."

Joseph and Brigham always put more stock in living oracles than dead ones, however much they revered those who went before.

[SoonerCoug]

If I had to guess, I imagine Chinese were harder to come by in ancient Israel than women.

It probably would have been less outrageous in that age for Jesus to have had a Chinese male apostle than a woman.

Arguing that women were excluded in a primitive society 2000 years ago and must therefore be excluded in the 21st century is a really stupid argument. Is that what Mormon thought has been reduced to? Trying to make things like they were 2000 years ago? Can't you see the problem with that?

Think of all the things that Jesus established that we don't do anymore. Think of all the things we do in Mormonism that Jesus never did. Then use the argument that if Jesus didn't have a female apostle 2000 years ago then we must not have one today, as if Jesus was in no way a product of his culture and time? God help us all.

I would love to have an apostle's ear for a day. Think of what a privilege that would be--to be able to challenge an apostle on these issues in person. I would take advantage of such an opportunity if I had one.

[Indy Coug]

It probably would have been less outrageous in that age for Jesus to have had a Chinese male apostle than a woman.

Arguing that women were excluded in a primitive society 2000 years ago and must therefore be excluded in the 21st century is a really stupid argument. Is that what Mormon thought has been reduced to? Trying to make things like they were 2000 years ago? Can't you see the problem with that?

Think of all the things that Jesus established that we don't do anymore. Think of all the things we do in Mormonism that Jesus never did. Then use the argument that if Jesus didn't have a female apostle 2000 years ago then we must not have one today, as if Jesus was in no way a product of his culture and time? God help us all.

I would love to have an apostle's ear for a day. Think of what a privilege that would be--to be able to challenge an apostle on these issues in person. I would take advantage of such an opportunity if I had one.

That's really a good point. Jesus tried his damndest not to shake up the status quo. That's precisely why he didn't ordain women. After all, who is God to think He can do whatever the hell he wanted as a quasi-mortal?

[Pelado]

That's really a good point. Jesus tried his damndest not to shake up the status quo. That's precisely why he didn't ordain women. After all, who is God to think He can do whatever the hell he wanted as a quasi-mortal?

Wasn't that the unrecorded fourth temptation - Lucifer tried to get Jesus to ordain a woman?