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Thread: I taught in church today

  1. #61
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    There's a picture of the Salt Lake Temple from the early 1900s that clearly shows the spittoons. (http://dialoguejournal.com/wp-conten...e_V29N03_9.pdf).
    Fascinating read. I'd never heard that story. But I could never find the spittoons in the pictures. Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking for.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    Fascinating read. I'd never heard that story. But I could never find the spittoons in the pictures. Maybe I just don't know what I'm looking for.
    See photos 87 and 89. Read the captions.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    See photos 87 and 89. Read the captions.
    I can see the outline of the one, off to the left, in 89 but can't see the one in 87.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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    Thank you for sharing. I just started reading McKay: The Rise of Modern Mormonism. I appreciate the example of tolerance he was and it has made me start to look at my own tolerances for multiple viewpoints within the Gospel. I appreciate lessons that do not take the same tired approaches that have been given all our lives and that is how I try to present my monthly lessons, albeit without as much panache.

  5. #65

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    Once again it would have been fun to be a fly on the wall.

  6. #66
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    See photos 87 and 89. Read the captions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I can see the outline of the one, off to the left, in 89 but can't see the one in 87.
    Okay, I see the outline in 89 now. 87 is much more difficult, but I see what they are referencing.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shaka View Post
    Once again it would have been fun to be a fly on the wall.
    Some people were very uncomfortable. And when I hit the meat bit and herbal tea issue people were fighting back - funny what happens when you poke at stuff people do instead of what they don't. Completely expected. If you actually read the linked articles, you'll see I was overselling John Widtsoe, and this was on purpose.

    News of the lesson traveled like wildfire, as is the case when you have a big bottle of run on the table for all to see (there are windows in the doors). Several people have asked me for notes and a lot of people liked it - people outside of the ones who usually come up. Packed house. Two people did get up and leave - maybe for me, maybe not.
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  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    Some people were very uncomfortable. And when I hit the meat bit and herbal tea issue people were fighting back - funny what happens when you poke at stuff people do instead of what they don't. Completely expected. If you actually read the linked articles, you'll see I was overselling John Widtsoe, and this was on purpose.

    News of the lesson traveled like wildfire, as is the case when you have a big bottle of run on the table for all to see (there are windows in the doors). Several people have asked me for notes and a lot of people liked it - people outside of the ones who usually come up. Packed house. Two people did get up and leave - maybe for me, maybe not.
    You are legend!

    Sort of reminds me of my best friend's father. He ditched the church but liked the social aspect of it and the lifestyle. He ended up being the best high priest teacher around.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    Some people were very uncomfortable. And when I hit the meat bit and herbal tea issue people were fighting back - funny what happens when you poke at stuff people do instead of what they don't. Completely expected. If you actually read the linked articles, you'll see I was overselling John Widtsoe, and this was on purpose.

    News of the lesson traveled like wildfire, as is the case when you have a big bottle of run on the table for all to see (there are windows in the doors). Several people have asked me for notes and a lot of people liked it - people outside of the ones who usually come up. Packed house. Two people did get up and leave - maybe for me, maybe not.
    I remember when I taught this four years ago, it was my last lesson before they released me (I was moving). I focused for a bit on the meat thing and asked what people thought of the restriction on meat. Someone cited section 49 and immediately the ward's vocal vegetarian piped up and said "But that just contradicts it, it doesn't resolve anything." I smiled and asked the carnivore who cited section 49 what he thought of the response and he went on for about five minutes on the benefits of eating meat and how science has proven that there is no better source of protein than meat and that when eaten responsibly it was very healthy and an essential part of a balanced diet blah blah blah.

    When he was done, I pointed out that scientists had also proven that those who drank a glass of wine with their dinner received significant health benefits and asked him if we could also disregard the injunction against wine. He kind of winced as saw the flaw in his logic and after stumbling over his words for a few moments it was clear he had no real answer. We then moved on to other things.

    The brilliance of phippopotamus's lesson is in the conclusion. Would that all members understood the danger of making the WoW such an important cultural marker.
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    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pellegrino View Post
    I remember when I taught this four years ago, it was my last lesson before they released me (I was moving). I focused for a bit on the meat thing and asked what people thought of the restriction on meat. Someone cited section 49 and immediately the ward's vocal vegetarian piped up and said "But that just contradicts it, it doesn't resolve anything." I smiled and asked the carnivore who cited section 49 what he thought of the response and he went on for about five minutes on the benefits of eating meat and how science has proven that there is no better source of protein than meat and that when eaten responsibly it was very healthy and an essential part of a balanced diet blah blah blah.

    When he was done, I pointed out that scientists had also proven that those who drank a glass of wine with their dinner received significant health benefits and asked him if we could also disregard the injunction against wine. He kind of winced as saw the flaw in his logic and after stumbling over his words for a few moments it was clear he had no real answer. We then moved on to other things.

    The brilliance of phippopotamus's lesson is in the conclusion. Would that all members understood the danger of making the WoW such an important cultural marker.
    Lol. I've loved the various takes on Pheidippides, but this one is the best so far.

    Section 49 is a hilariously bad counter because it's a revelation given as a direct counter to the Shakers that some missionaries were coming against. And the new heading doesn't even hide that.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pellegrino View Post
    I remember when I taught this four years ago, it was my last lesson before they released me (I was moving). I focused for a bit on the meat thing and asked what people thought of the restriction on meat. Someone cited section 49 and immediately the ward's vocal vegetarian piped up and said "But that just contradicts it, it doesn't resolve anything." I smiled and asked the carnivore who cited section 49 what he thought of the response and he went on for about five minutes on the benefits of eating meat and how science has proven that there is no better source of protein than meat and that when eaten responsibly it was very healthy and an essential part of a balanced diet blah blah blah.

    When he was done, I pointed out that scientists had also proven that those who drank a glass of wine with their dinner received significant health benefits and asked him if we could also disregard the injunction against wine. He kind of winced as saw the flaw in his logic and after stumbling over his words for a few moments it was clear he had no real answer. We then moved on to other things.

    The brilliance of phippopotamus's lesson is in the conclusion. Would that all members understood the danger of making the WoW such an important cultural marker.
    He missed the whole point: it tastes good.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

  12. #72
    CS Institutional Memory Jarid in Cedar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    He missed the whole point: it tastes good.
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  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    Lol. I've loved the various takes on Pheidippides, but this one is the best so far.

    Section 49 is a hilariously bad counter because it's a revelation given as a direct counter to the Shakers that some missionaries were coming against. And the new heading doesn't even hide that.
    sometimes I wonder if they really don't realize that they're cherry picking.

    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    He missed the whole point: it tastes good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
    Winner
    well that's obvious, but anyone who wants to make themselves sound important cites "science", besides, tasting good is just a simpler manifestation of the same logic.
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  14. #74
    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pellegrino View Post
    sometimes I wonder if they really don't realize that they're cherry picking.
    They absolutely don't. We've created this powerful culture of scriptures devoid of context, in which we can take any scripture and say, "we'll, I think this means...." Most of my class this year has been spent telling people indirectly that is a load of hogwash, and that what we have is a response to specific situations and stimuli. You can't just use the topical guide, pick out a verse, and then go on your merry way justified.
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  15. #75

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    I'm struggling to understand the significance of this information. Most LDS understand the WoW has evolved over time and we understand and obey it how it is currently defined by the prophet and apostles, which is pretty clear.

  16. #76
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    We've created this powerful culture of scriptures devoid of context, in which we can take any scripture and say, "we'll, I think this means...."
    We haven't created this culture, we've inherited it. Proof-texting is infinitely worse outside of the church than it is inside it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    We haven't created this culture, we've inherited it. Proof-texting is infinitely worse outside of the church than it is inside it.
    I disagree quite strongly here. This IS correlation. Maybe we would have ended up here anyway, proof texting being what it is (we can disagree about in versus out of the church, but point well taken), but this was created in the 1960s or I am no judge of social science.

    (I am open to being no judge of social science).

    Jay, I don't think the information is especially important in a vacuum. It's its status as a cultural marker that makes it important.
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  18. #78
    Out chasing ambulances Hypoplastic's Avatar
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    Great job on your presentation, Pheid.

    On a personal note, I am grateful to a bishop I have never met who disregarded the WOW as a cultural marker. Roughly 45-50 years ago this bishop called my grandfather to be the ward financial clerk. My grandfather was inactive at the time, but had a knack for numbers. His response to the bishop: "Well hell, Bishop, I smoke." The Bishop could have told him he had to quit before he'd be worthy to accept such a calling. Instead, he simply asked him to put it out before he came inside the building. This calling spurred him to become active again and eventually quit smoking. A few years later his family was sealed together. Aside from the spiritual change in his life, I'm certain that had he not quit smoking, he would have died far sooner than he did. I may have been deprived of knowing that fine man if not for his bishop.

  19. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
    I'm struggling to understand the significance of this information. Most LDS understand the WoW has evolved over time and we understand and obey it how it is currently defined by the prophet and apostles, which is pretty clear.
    I don't think it's pretty clear. There are all kinds of gray areas, a few of which niku highlighted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pheidippides View Post
    Jay, I don't think the information is especially important in a vacuum. It's its status as a cultural marker that makes it important.
    I've thought a lot about this "cultural marker" stuff and I'm trying to decide if I agree with you that it should not be used that way. I can't remember the name of the female blogger whom I used to read once in a while--she was one of the original really big bloggers, got a lot of national attention (I first came across mention of her in Time or Newsweek or something), used to be Mormon, lives in SLC, had left the church but a lot of her posts had something to do with the church as her parents and family were still active. Anyway...she mentioned once that she felt a lot more guilt when she drank her first cup of coffee than when she first had premarital sex (which preceded the coffee by a couple of years). She meant it as a sort of ironic observation and I initially took it that way, but her comment has still stuck with me. I don't think the WOW has any value as a health code. I don't think it has anything to do with a moral life. BUT, I think there is an interesting value to it as a cultural marker. When you consciously break it in one of the non-gray areas, you're making a statement. You're breaking from the tribe. Is that an important moral step (ie, is there a moral value to belonging to a group?)? I don't know, but as someone who regularly drinks coffee on night shifts, it's made me wonder a little.
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    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I don't think it's pretty clear. There are all kinds of gray areas, a few of which niku highlighted.



    I've thought a lot about this "cultural marker" stuff and I'm trying to decide if I agree with you that it should not be used that way. I can't remember the name of the female blogger whom I used to read once in a while--she was one of the original really big bloggers, got a lot of national attention (I first came across mention of her in Time or Newsweek or something), used to be Mormon, lives in SLC, had left the church but a lot of her posts had something to do with the church as her parents and family were still active. Anyway...she mentioned once that she felt a lot more guilt when she drank her first cup of coffee than when she first had premarital sex (which preceded the coffee by a couple of years). She meant it as a sort of ironic observation and I initially took it that way, but her comment has still stuck with me. I don't think the WOW has any value as a health code. I don't think it has anything to do with a moral life. BUT, I think there is an interesting value to it as a cultural marker. When you consciously break it in one of the non-gray areas, you're making a statement. You're breaking from the tribe. Is that an important moral step (ie, is there a moral value to belonging to a group?)? I don't know, but as someone who regularly drinks coffee on night shifts, it's made me wonder a little.
    Interesting thoughts, and I wonder about such things myself. On the other hand, will the failure to live up to a particular cultural marker be the cause for rejection of another - I already drink coffee, therefore I'm out of the group, and let's have lots of reckless sex (for example). Even though the coffee may not have been an intentional rejection of the society. I also occasionally have a cup of joe - it's a race morning tradition, actually - and I wonder if it is a symptom of my break with the theology if not the group.

    HypoP, that's the exact thing I was trying to get across in my lesson. I would have shared that story at the end.
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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    The WoW is a classic example of how we can be just as prone to Pharisaical thinking and practice as any religious group. I like how p-dippitydo's lesson highlighted that so well. It is great to get people to step back and think about the WoW from a different perspective and with some good historical context.
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    ER - while I don't think that blogger is making anything up, I can't help but wonder what in the world convinced her that drinking coffee was worse than premarital sex. Unless she just really enjoyed one more than the other and felt more guilt for the one she enjoyed...

    I'm just trying to figure out anything ever said that would lead to someone feeling that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    ER - while I don't think that blogger is making anything up, I can't help but wonder what in the world convinced her that drinking coffee was worse than premarital sex. Unless she just really enjoyed one more than the other and felt more guilt for the one she enjoyed...

    I'm just trying to figure out anything ever said that would lead to someone feeling that way.
    How about that one of the activities is encouraged after marriage while the other activity is not OK in any situations?
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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  24. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    ER - while I don't think that blogger is making anything up, I can't help but wonder what in the world convinced her that drinking coffee was worse than premarital sex. Unless she just really enjoyed one more than the other and felt more guilt for the one she enjoyed...

    I'm just trying to figure out anything ever said that would lead to someone feeling that way.
    She wasn't arguing that her feeling was right--she admitted it was ridiculous, just that it felt that way.

    Pelado makes a good point though.

    Does anyone remember her? I'd look her post up, but when I google "mormon blogger", well...
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
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  25. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    I don't think it's pretty clear. There are all kinds of gray areas, a few of which niku highlighted.
    What's not clear?

    No coffee, no tea, no alcohol, no illegal drugs, no tobacco. Everything else OK. Is there 1/1,000 bishops that would interpret it differently?

  26. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
    What's not clear?

    No coffee, no tea, no alcohol, no illegal drugs, no tobacco. Everything else OK. Is there 1/1,000 bishops that would interpret it differently?
    Off the top of my head, without reference to niku's talk (did you read it?):

    Green coffee beans. Chocolate covered coffee beans. Coffee-flavored ice cream. Coffee candies made with real coffee.

    Green tea. White tea. Green tea extract. Iced tea. Herbal tea (summon DDD!).

    Rum cake. Non-alcoholic beer. Non-alcoholic wine.

    Marijuana brownies in Colorado. Marijuana brownies in Amsterdam.

    Etc.
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

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    Senior Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    How about that one of the activities is encouraged after marriage while the other activity is not OK in any situations?
    Except no one has ever said that your parents would rather have you return home in the evening in a coffin than having partaken of coffee. No one ever said that you should die fighting rather than have alcohol forced on you. I don't recall hearing of kids who were kidnapped and were too ashamed to return home because they smoked a cigarette. I don't recall any discussion of temple marriage that included comments that your sweetheart won't want you if you broke the word of wisdom because you'll be like chewed gum.

    These two things (sex vs. WoW) have just always been on very different planes to me.

    I suppose if others are looking at it the same way she is, that brings new meaning to the doctrinal fights over caffeine in your soda and the significance of not partaking has in some people's minds.

    ER - I get that she recognizes it was irrational and makes no sense. I'm just trying to imagine how it ever made sense in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    ...
    Marijuana brownies in Colorado. Marijuana brownies in Amsterdam.
    ....
    "Herbs are for the body".

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    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    She wasn't arguing that her feeling was right--she admitted it was ridiculous, just that it felt that way.

    Pelado makes a good point though.

    Does anyone remember her? I'd look her post up, but when I google "mormon blogger", well...


    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    Except no one has ever said that your parents would rather have you return home in the evening in a coffin than having partaken of coffee. No one ever said that you should die fighting rather than have alcohol forced on you. I don't recall hearing of kids who were kidnapped and were too ashamed to return home because they smoked a cigarette. I don't recall any discussion of temple marriage that included comments that your sweetheart won't want you if you broke the word of wisdom because you'll be like chewed gum.

    These two things (sex vs. WoW) have just always been on very different planes to me.

    I suppose if others are looking at it the same way she is, that brings new meaning to the doctrinal fights over caffeine in your soda and the significance of not partaking has in some people's minds.

    ER - I get that she recognizes it was irrational and makes no sense. I'm just trying to imagine how it ever made sense in the first place.
    Like anyone could even know that.

    For the record, many people would prefer me in a coffin.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
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    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ERCougar View Post
    Off the top of my head, without reference to niku's talk (did you read it?):

    Green coffee beans. Chocolate covered coffee beans. Coffee-flavored ice cream. Coffee candies made with real coffee.

    Green tea. White tea. Green tea extract. Iced tea. Herbal tea (summon DDD!).

    Rum cake. Non-alcoholic beer. Non-alcoholic wine.

    Marijuana brownies in Colorado. Marijuana brownies in Amsterdam.

    Etc.
    A few may cause pause, but I doubt the vast majority of devout LDS spend much time wondering about most of that list.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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