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  • This goes back to a common argument I used to have ten years ago with the Progmo's on milk vs meat. It's a bad analogy for Mo's to use this when explaining why we don't talk about historical warts in church. It's equally bad for Progmo's to yearn for "going past the milk and into the meat" in lesson material. Meat = faith, repentance, charity, worship, sacrifice, fall, atonement, etc. That is the meat of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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    • Originally posted by jay santos View Post
      I was about to play devil's advocate, because I have a different opinion on what a SS class should be than many of you, but I read that lesson and it is a crock of shit.

      Now as for my contrarian opinion on SS lessons...

      I go to church to be inspired, to worship, to seek a connection with God, etc. I don't go seeking an intellectual discussion of the origins of whatever historical event or even scripture. I'm fine with watered down lessons. I'm pretty OK with correlation. Most of the time when I hear a teacher bragging about their non-correlated lesson, I think, "meh not that compelling". I'd rather leave church feeling like I connected with God or inspired to provide service to a loved one or to repent of a misdeed than leave feeling like the lesson broke new ground in historical analysis of church teachings and really put the mullahs in place.
      This is why I like my team teacher so much. Between the two of us, we cover both bases well.
      Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

      Comment


      • Thanks for your words, Jay. I have mentioned before that sometimes it seems like the church has two groups...an ultra orthadox group who constantly yells "you're doing it wrong" and another group that only seems to get excited about pointing out hypocrisy in the orthodox or the church organization in general. Sometimes I wonder if there is a group that just wants to try to be better, be uplifted, find God and understand what we are doing on this earth in the first place.

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        • Originally posted by jay santos View Post
          I was about to play devil's advocate, because I have a different opinion on what a SS class should be than many of you, but I read that lesson and it is a crock of shit.

          Now as for my contrarian opinion on SS lessons...

          I go to church to be inspired, to worship, to seek a connection with God, etc. I don't go seeking an intellectual discussion of the origins of whatever historical event or even scripture. I'm fine with watered down lessons. I'm pretty OK with correlation. Most of the time when I hear a teacher bragging about their non-correlated lesson, I think, "meh not that compelling". I'd rather leave church feeling like I connected with God or inspired to provide service to a loved one or to repent of a misdeed than leave feeling like the lesson broke new ground in historical analysis of church teachings and really put the mullahs in place.
          I can't speak for everyone else, but I agree with you that SS lessons are (and should be) primarily focused on worship and building faith. The problem with overly-correlated lessons is that they often end up having the opposite effect. This lesson is a prime example. There are lots of ways this topic could be covered that could be tremendously edifying and faith-promoting. But not the way it is written. In order words, I reject your implied point that non-correlated = not compatible with faith.
          "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
          "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
          "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
            I can't speak for everyone else, but I agree with you that SS lessons are (and should be) primarily focused on worship and building faith. The problem with overly-correlated lessons is that they often end up having the opposite effect. This lesson is a prime example. There are lots of ways this topic could be covered that could be tremendously edifying and faith-promoting. But not the way it is written. In order words, I reject your implied point that non-correlated = not compatible with faith.
            I do try to tie everything back to the meat Jay talks about. It's certainly no history class. But different people want different things, and in my ward people are tired of the same old lessons.
            Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by jay santos View Post
              I was about to play devil's advocate, because I have a different opinion on what a SS class should be than many of you, but I read that lesson and it is a crock of shit.

              Now as for my contrarian opinion on SS lessons...

              I go to church to be inspired, to worship, to seek a connection with God, etc. I don't go seeking an intellectual discussion of the origins of whatever historical event or even scripture. I'm fine with watered down lessons. I'm pretty OK with correlation. Most of the time when I hear a teacher bragging about their non-correlated lesson, I think, "meh not that compelling". I'd rather leave church feeling like I connected with God or inspired to provide service to a loved one or to repent of a misdeed than leave feeling like the lesson broke new ground in historical analysis of church teachings and really put the mullahs in place.
              I really don't think that these need to be mutually exclusive. Isn't that why everyone goes to church? There are two very far points across the spectrum of being an effective teacher. There's the person that goes straight out of the manual and asks questions straight from the book at the prompted spots. Opposite of this point is the person who couldn't tell you anything that the lesson manual says behind the title since their motivation is simply to tell you what they know, no matter how abstract. The problem with both of these is that church life doesn't exist in a bubble. The first tends to set members up for failure, or at the very least denial, when they're out and about in life and encounter one of those inconvenient details that don't mesh with their paradigm. The second sets people up for failure when the push and shove of life requires some faith, passion, and struggle not just the original Greek translation of a scripture out of Leviticus. The history is important because context matters. It's like living your life out of the Old Testament without realizing that Christ had a few things to say about that.

              Personally, I need a healthy dosage of both. If I'm going to sit through the same lesson every four years for the rest of my life, I'm going to need one or two fresh takes from time to time. You don't need to blow my socks off with random pieces of trivia, but I do need to be able to sense that you put some effort into it. What I find most inspiring is stories of imperfect people doing good things imperfectly. These stories are saturated not just through LDS history, but world history. Just because the main character didn't grow up to become an apostle, doesn't need to discredit the experience.
              I told him he was a goddamn Nazi Stormtrooper.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Pheidippides View Post
                I am qualified to answer this.

                So, when you're milking a cow, you get a pretty good flow going and fill your bucket fairly quickly, at least for a time. But as you milk you get less and less. And pretty soon you have to pinch the teat between thumb and forefinger and slide it down from top to bottom to get everything out. (It's important to get everything out because otherwise you risk the cow getting mastitis, which makes the milk undrinkable).

                This last bit is what is referred to as strippings. Supposedly it's higher in cream content (cream being lighter than milk) and is therefore more valuable in a society in which you are doing things like churning butter. I personally don't think it makes much of a difference, but our cow had a high cream content anyway, so I may not have noticed.
                Thank you. I learned something new.
                "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

                Comment


                • I have been asked to teach HPG this Sunday. This is the lesson:

                  https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings...sible?lang=eng

                  Note the subtext on the lesson title:

                  “The nature of those demands upon us [is] such that no person can comply with them, unless by assistance from the Almighty. … He has promised this aid.”
                  It is kind of an odd lesson. A bunch of quotes about how the church is so demanding, we couldn't possibly do everything without divine help. Amen to that.

                  I thought I would start out by making a list of all of the demands that come with discipleship in terms of time, money, etc. Then to make things interesting, I will quote recent stats about Utah leading the nation in depression (there were some recent stats on this; anyone have a link?). Maybe talk about strategies for avoiding burnout, how it is OK to turn down callings, prioritizing our time, etc. and then wrap up with an inspirational sound bite from DU on discipleship. I think it could be an interesting topic.

                  Thoughts and advice appreciated.
                  "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                  "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                  "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                    I have been asked to teach HPG this Sunday. This is the lesson:

                    https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings...sible?lang=eng

                    Note the subtext on the lesson title:



                    It is kind of an odd lesson. A bunch of quotes about how the church is so demanding, we couldn't possibly do everything without divine help. Amen to that.

                    I thought I would start out by making a list of all of the demands that come with discipleship in terms of time, money, etc. Then to make things interesting, I will quote recent stats about Utah leading the nation in depression (there were some recent stats on this; anyone have a link?). Maybe talk about strategies for avoiding burnout, how it is OK to turn down callings, prioritizing our time, etc. and then wrap up with an inspirational sound bite from DU on discipleship. I think it could be an interesting topic.

                    Thoughts and advice appreciated.
                    I'd like to see an actual list of what the Church expects/demands from us. That would be interesting.

                    When poet puts pen to paper imagination breathes life, finding hearth and home.
                    -Mid Summer's Night Dream

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                      I have been asked to teach HPG this Sunday. This is the lesson:

                      https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings...sible?lang=eng

                      Note the subtext on the lesson title:



                      It is kind of an odd lesson. A bunch of quotes about how the church is so demanding, we couldn't possibly do everything without divine help. Amen to that.

                      I thought I would start out by making a list of all of the demands that come with discipleship in terms of time, money, etc. Then to make things interesting, I will quote recent stats about Utah leading the nation in depression (there were some recent stats on this; anyone have a link?). Maybe talk about strategies for avoiding burnout, how it is OK to turn down callings, prioritizing our time, etc. and then wrap up with an inspirational sound bite from DU on discipleship. I think it could be an interesting topic.

                      Thoughts and advice appreciated.
                      I like your strategy, JL. My only advice would be to not draw up the lesson in the abstract but to keep the specific guys in your HP group in mind as you prepare. While I would personally love to hear a lesson on it being OK to turn down callings, I remember when I was HP Group Leader we had a bunch of guys--former bishops and assorted former mucky mucks--who were great guys but couldn't be bothered to accept any assignments whatsoever beside home teaching, on the (unstated) grounds that they had "done their time." I loved those guys but geez it was a headache to get them to do anything. I'd be reluctant to give them any further license to justify their coasting to the finish line. And I know that that's how those guys would have heard that lesson.
                      Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
                      --William Blake, via Shpongle

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
                        I like your strategy, JL. My only advice would be to not draw up the lesson in the abstract but to keep the specific guys in your HP group in mind as you prepare. While I would personally love to hear a lesson on it being OK to turn down callings, I remember when I was HP Group Leader we had a bunch of guys--former bishops and assorted former mucky mucks--who were great guys but couldn't be bothered to accept any assignments whatsoever beside home teaching, on the (unstated) grounds that they had "done their time." I loved those guys but geez it was a headache to get them to do anything. I'd be reluctant to give them any further license to justify their coasting to the finish line. And I know that that's how those guys would have heard that lesson.
                        lol.
                        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                        Comment


                        • Don't use the depression stat unless you really mean to imply that it has something to do with your lesson topic. That's a Cougarboard tactic.
                          "It's devastating, because we lost to a team that's not even in the Pac-12. To lose to Utah State is horrible." - John White IV

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                            I have been asked to teach HPG this Sunday. This is the lesson:

                            https://www.lds.org/manual/teachings...sible?lang=eng

                            Note the subtext on the lesson title:



                            It is kind of an odd lesson. A bunch of quotes about how the church is so demanding, we couldn't possibly do everything without divine help. Amen to that.

                            I thought I would start out by making a list of all of the demands that come with discipleship in terms of time, money, etc. Then to make things interesting, I will quote recent stats about Utah leading the nation in depression (there were some recent stats on this; anyone have a link?). Maybe talk about strategies for avoiding burnout, how it is OK to turn down callings, prioritizing our time, etc. and then wrap up with an inspirational sound bite from DU on discipleship. I think it could be an interesting topic.

                            Thoughts and advice appreciated.
                            I don't really like the premise "With God, all things are possible" in this context. Because in the end, we just simply can't do everything. I would start with discussion on how we're supposed to prioritize our lives. 1. Family 2. Job 3. Church. You could even do the Stephen Covey rocks and pebbles priority visual for emphasis. The point of the lesson shouldn't be that with God's help, we can do everything but with God's help, we can know what is most important. The title of this lesson just implies that if people are struggling to keep their head above water, they just need to be more faithful. There have been some good talks over the last several years to encourage prioritization. DU had a good one called "Of Things that Matter Most" and Oaks with an even better one titled "Good, Better, Best."

                            I've mentioned before that I'm a big fan of Richard Bach's Jonathon Livingston Seagull. The whole story is about this seagull that divinity is not found in scavenging and hanging out with the flock, but in flight. At that point he gets a little obsessed with speed and always trying to fly a little faster. And after one more failed attempt and trying to be a falcon, he is taught the following:

                            You will begin to touch heaven, Jonathan, in the moment that you touch perfect speed. And that isn’t flying a thousand miles an hour, or a million, or flying at the speed of light. Because any number is a limit, and perfection doesn’t have limits. Perfect speed, my son, is being there.
                            Perfection in the gospel isn't measured in home teaching statistics or perfect FHE's. It's about being able to give our focus to the things that we can do -our priorities -and doing them well.
                            I told him he was a goddamn Nazi Stormtrooper.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by kccougar View Post
                              Don't use the depression stat unless you really mean to imply that it has something to do with your lesson topic. That's a Cougarboard tactic.
                              I don't get it. You don't think it has any relevance to the topic?

                              If I do present it, I would be careful to suggest that connecting the stat to LDS culture is a matter of conjecture. Utah also ranks near the bottom (worst) in suicide but I think there are other factors at play in that case. As for depression, I think there are elements of our culture that could exacerbate the problem. And here we have an LDS prophet saying that the demands of the gospel are so great that one couldn't possibly satisfy them without divine intervention. I don't know how one could accept that statement at face value and at the same time deny that we might have some problems with depression and feelings of inadequacy.
                              "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                              "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                              "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Dwight Schr-ute View Post
                                I don't really like the premise "With God, all things are possible" in this context. Because in the end, we just simply can't do everything. I would start with discussion on how we're supposed to prioritize our lives. 1. Family 2. Job 3. Church. You could even do the Stephen Covey rocks and pebbles priority visual for emphasis. The point of the lesson shouldn't be that with God's help, we can do everything but with God's help, we can know what is most important. The title of this lesson just implies that if people are struggling to keep their head above water, they just need to be more faithful. There have been some good talks over the last several years to encourage prioritization. DU had a good one called "Of Things that Matter Most" and Oaks with an even better one titled "Good, Better, Best."

                                I've mentioned before that I'm a big fan of Richard Bach's Jonathon Livingston Seagull. The whole story is about this seagull that divinity is not found in scavenging and hanging out with the flock, but in flight. At that point he gets a little obsessed with speed and always trying to fly a little faster. And after one more failed attempt and trying to be a falcon, he is taught the following:



                                Perfection in the gospel isn't measured in home teaching statistics or perfect FHE's. It's about being able to give our focus to the things that we can do -our priorities -and doing them well.
                                Great thoughts, DS. Thanks.

                                I was thinking about the priorities list thing. Some interesting ways you could take that.

                                I like the SR Covey concept of quadrants (important - not important - urgent - not urgent). Might look for a way to throw that in.
                                "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                                "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                                "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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