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  • #16
    Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
    BTW, I use that talk by Elder Nelson, along with an earlier one, even more speculative, by Elder Anderson (July 1977?)

    Did you mean 116 pages, or did you mean 114 pages? If you meant 116, then that makes sense -- if he only used the U&T for the first 116, then taking away the interpreters for a season would mean no translation. If this happened later on, after JS developed his seer gift independent of the U&T, he could have continued translation without (as Niku calls it) his crutch.

    Contrariwise, if you really meant 114, then that will open a new can of worms that I refuse to speculate about until you confirm.
    114 or 116... whatever it takes. Yes, I meant 116. It seems I read somewhere that the original 116 was translated by the U&T. Niku, have you read this in your studies?
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
      114 or 116... whatever it takes. Yes, I meant 116. It seems I read somewhere that the original 116 was translated by the U&T. Niku, have you read this in your studies?
      Going from memory but that's what I remember about it. The lost pages were translated via the U&T and when they were lost, Moroni retook everything, the gold plates, the U&T, and that cool sword of Laban. Then, when JS was allowed to translate again, he did so using seer stone(s). I had thought that one of the stones came from the U&T but my memory is real fuzzy. I had also "heard" that one of the reason's that the U&T wasn't used anymore was because it was awkward for JS to use as it was designed to fit a larger man - a Jaredite. And JS was larger than average in stature. But I admit that much of this could be Mormon lore.
      “Not the victory but the action. Not the goal but the game. In the deed the glory.”
      "All things are measured against Nebraska." falafel

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      • #18
        I taught in church today

        Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
        114 or 116... whatever it takes. Yes, I meant 116. It seems I read somewhere that the original 116 was translated by the U&T. Niku, have you read this in your studies?
        Yes, I read that as well. I think it's at least implied, if not explicit, in Bushman. That took place 1828, with discovery of the loss taking place in July (the translation had finished in April if I am not mistaken - Harris took the manuscript all the way back to Palmyra from Harmony, Emma had a baby that died, got close herself, and then once she's stabilized Joseph went up to Palmyra to see about the manuscript. The Anton story happened somewhere between April and July, IIRC.

        Anyway, the U&T were confiscated from Joseph by Moroni, but later returned to him on September 22 during the annual interview (I didn't know they still had these until I read that). Then Joseph is too busy preparing for the winter to do much, Emma is probably not in the greatest mood, and life just goes on until Samuel and Oliver show up on April 5 of 1829. The accounts do vary a bit - Emma and David W both talk about the stone in hat method, but Oliver mentions the U&T. Oliver was the primary - but not only - scribe; Emma helped at least with the 116 and maybe more, and both David and John Whitmer spelled Oliver from time to time.

        But the process is very different than the 116; then there was a tablecloth dividing the room with Harris on one side and Joseph on the other, presumably (although we don't know) looking at the plates through the U&T.

        Emma, however, says there was nothing between them and the plates were wrapped in cloth (this is why I presume she was involved in the second round as well). David Whitmer seems to indicate the same. Whatever the case, there was no dividing cloth and no actual looking at the plates (wrapped on the table). This make sense if you consider that Oliver is trying to translate something he's never seen - else why would he need to do the whole three witness thing later? As much as any of this makes sense, I mean.

        I wonder if the shift to the seerstone from the U&T was a reaction to having the U&T taken away. Maybe Joseph, in his heart of hearts, wants to do it his way? Maybe he's still ascribing magic to the item and not the Person and is preparing against the eventuality that they are taken from him again? I don't know, and other stories - like the one where he couldn't translate after a spat with Emma - seem to counter that.
        Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by nikuman View Post
          Emma is probably not in the greatest mood,
          I read a blurb somewhere from one of the midwives that Emma's baby was born horribly deformed and stillborn. It was her first and she nearly died. She experienced trials that we never think about. I wonder if she thought the baby's death was some sort of sign or trial.

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          • #20
            I taught in church today

            Originally posted by Katy Lied View Post
            I read a blurb somewhere from one of the midwives that Emma's baby was born horribly deformed and stillborn. It was her first and she nearly died. She experienced trials that we never think about. I wonder if she thought the baby's death was some sort of sign or trial.
            I read that in Emma's bio too. Emma is one of my heroes of the early church - she went through a lot.
            Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by nikuman View Post
              I read that in Emma's bio too. Emma is one of my heroes of the early church - she went through a lot.
              So have you read?...

              [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Mormon-Enigma-Emma-Hale-Smith/dp/0252062914/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1360714140&sr=8-2&keywords=Emma+Smith"]Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith: Linda King Newell, Valeen Tippetts Avery: 9780252062919: Amazon.com: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41C5q24w8qL.@@AMEPARAM@@41C5q24w8qL[/ame]

              I am just wondering if this review is accurate:

              I voted with my feet

              I bought and read this book many years ago. I got about half way through this book, when I felt a dark feeling. I didn't like that feeling and quit reading it. I threw it in a dumpster. I didn't want anyone else to read it. I have read many other works of Mormon history and not had that feeling. I do not recommend the book.
              I am guessing it must be a pretty good book given the other reviews, however.
              "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
              "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
              "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
              GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

              Comment


              • #22
                I taught in church today

                Originally posted by Uncle Ted View Post
                So have you read?...

                Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith: Linda King Newell, Valeen Tippetts Avery: 9780252062919: Amazon.com: [email]Books

                I am just wondering if this review is accurate:



                I am guessing it must be a pretty good book given the other reviews, however.
                Almost done with it. Fabulous book. Very much Bushman and not Brodie (I like both Bushman and Brodie).
                Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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                • #23
                  The best thing about this thread is it inevitably sets up a "I not in church today" thread which could have a lot of potential.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by jay santos View Post
                    The best thing about this thread is it inevitably sets up a "I not in church today" thread which could have a lot of potential.
                    I prefer "I fought in church today".

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                    • #25
                      I am sad to see this thread has not been updated. Pheidippides? KL? Any ther lesson outlines or discussions?
                      PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by creekster View Post
                        I am sad to see this thread has not been updated. Pheidippides? KL? Any ther lesson outlines or discussions?
                        Haven't had the time to update. I have one I'll try to type up later - today we're spending a lot of time on the new scriptures and then talking about how faith is not mutually exclusive of doubt, but rather they are companions. We're teaching from Alma 32 instead of the D&C - sort of a curveball in the manual.

                        Edit: I also haven't taught since the last update because of stake conference and a lesson taught by my team teacher.
                        Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Pheidippides View Post
                          Haven't had the time to update. I have one I'll try to type up later - today we're spending a lot of time on the new scriptures and then talking about how faith is not mutually exclusive of doubt, but rather they are companions. We're teaching from Alma 32 instead of the D&C - sort of a curveball in the manual.

                          Edit: I also haven't taught since the last update because of stake conference and a lesson taught by my team teacher.
                          I've been reading The God Who Weeps, and one of the ideas I really liked was that of a crossroads. In life, we're presented with evidence regarding God (or the Gospel in general), both for and against. When we are, we stand at a crossroads, and we can choose which way to go. For example, we can interpret a feeling to do something as a hunch or a prompting from the Spirit. This is where faith is. We choose, in faith, to go one way or the other. While the authors don't really say this, I think doubt is part of that as you evaluate the evidence and choose what kind of significance you want to attach to an event. Faith can acknowledge and accept doubt, and I think doubt can make faith stronger.
                          Not that, sickos.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by SCcoug View Post
                            I prefer "I fought in church today".
                            Or we could get really bold and have a thread called "I thought in church today."

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Soccermom View Post
                              Or we could get really bold and have a thread called "I thought in church today."
                              Or if you're into origami maybe "I wrought in church today."
                              PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by creekster View Post
                                Or if you're into origami maybe "I wrought in church today."
                                We could discuss The Strange Case of Origami Joseph Smith.
                                Get confident, stupid
                                -landpoke

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