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Thread: What I Thought In Church Today.

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    I didn't intend to start a debate or an argument but the course of conversation naturally led it that direction. I just wanted to share the thoughts and feelings I had in church yesterday. This is a political topic, but my views on it are influenced by my religious beliefs.

    I listed several scriptures that influence my thinking. I don't see any scriptures that would cause me to change my mind. If anybody has any "get rich or die trying" or "tough luck to your neighbor" scriptures, point them out to me and I will consider them.
    You may have read the scriptures but you don't understand them.

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    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

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    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venkman View Post
    It's called individual voluntary action and collective voluntary charity, not forced wealth redistribution at the point of a gun. Surely you can see a difference.
    I do see a difference. A few months ago, more people voluntarily voted for a Presidential candidate who advocated universal healthcare, than for a candidate who opposed it.

    The government "redistributes wealth" to maintain the military, educate our children, provide fire and police services and build roads.

    Why should I pay for a road to Castle Dale? I never go to Castle Dale? Who the hell ever goes to Castle Dale? Maybe BYU coaches when they were recruiting Shawn Bradley, but that's about it.
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

  3. #33
    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    You may have read the scriptures but you don't understand them.
    That may be true. But approximately 20% of the Gospels involve Jesus healing various people. I think society should do likewise.
    Last edited by The Fourth Nephite; 01-22-2013 at 11:20 AM.
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    This is not necessarily the case. You should read up on the research.
    I'd bet you $20 that the cost to diagnose and treat her early are miniscule to the costs to treat her at an advanced stage.
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

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    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    That may be true. But approximately 20% of the Gospels involve Jesus healing various people. I think society should do likewise.
    I think the gospels make it very clear we are to take care of the vulnerable amongst us and I think that even includes the shitbags who take advantage of the system. That is obviously an obligation that Christians knowingly and willingly take upon themselves.
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I have visited Europe 3 times. Nice place to visit with the exception of France in 1965. What I really liked about Europe is how old it seemed. Very layback and non competitive. I felt in any kind of confrontation I would have the upper hand. Especially in France where the men lay their heads on the women's shoulders instead of vice versa.
    -byu'71

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    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    What else would you privatize?
    Marijuana production, the porn industry and the making of assault rifles with magazines that store fifty rounds, and I am talking Marine rounds, busta!
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I have visited Europe 3 times. Nice place to visit with the exception of France in 1965. What I really liked about Europe is how old it seemed. Very layback and non competitive. I felt in any kind of confrontation I would have the upper hand. Especially in France where the men lay their heads on the women's shoulders instead of vice versa.
    -byu'71

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    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    I do see a difference. A few months ago, more people voluntarily voted for a Presidential candidate who advocated universal healthcare, than for a candidate who opposed it.

    The government "redistributes wealth" to maintain the military, educate our children, provide fire and police services and build roads.

    Why should I pay for a road to Castle Dale? I never go to Castle Dale? Who the hell ever goes to Castle Dale? Maybe BYU coaches when they were recruiting Shawn Bradley, but that's about it.
    They did. They also voted for a hell of a lot of Representatives opposed to it. They also have elected more opposers of it to be their Governors and to populate their state legislatures than they have in a very, very long time. So there is a great deal of conclusions to draw on the issue.

    I agree with you about the Road to CastleDale. If it were private you would only have to pay your fair share for where you went. Prices for the CastleDale road would increase and those would be passed along via higher prices for Thanksgiving Turkeys, coal and US grade A Bovine!
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I have visited Europe 3 times. Nice place to visit with the exception of France in 1965. What I really liked about Europe is how old it seemed. Very layback and non competitive. I felt in any kind of confrontation I would have the upper hand. Especially in France where the men lay their heads on the women's shoulders instead of vice versa.
    -byu'71

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    That may be true. But approximately 20% of the Gospels involve Jesus healing various people. I think society should do likewise.
    Are there any scriptures that say we should tax people in order to finance the system? Or are their any scriptures that say "a person or company has to take the price given to them by the government to provide services"?

    Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  9. #39
    Stepping Razor wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    They did. They also voted for a hell of a lot of Representatives opposed to it. They also have elected more opposers of it to be their Governors and to populate their state legislatures than they have in a very, very long time. So there is a great deal of conclusions to draw on the issue.

    I agree with you about the Road to CastleDale. If it were private you would only have to pay your fair share for where you went. Prices for the CastleDale road would increase and those would be passed along via higher prices for Thanksgiving Turkeys, coal and US grade A Bovine!
    The road to Castledale would never get built. There's no enough capital to justify its existence. And no one would ever live there by choice without a road.

    Considering your industry.......what about the universal service fee?
    "LDS people need to lighten up and not take religion so seriously." --CardiacCoug
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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    That may be true. But approximately 20% of the Gospels involve Jesus healing various people. I think society should do likewise.
    if we could heal how jesus did by simply touching them or being touched then it would be a lot easier.

    Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  11. #41
    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Are there any scriptures that say we should tax people in order to finance the system? Or are their any scriptures that say "a person or company has to take the price given to them by the government to provide services"?

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    There's the "render unto Caesar " scripture. The Jews in Jesus' time didn't like a lot of the Roman laws and Jesus didn't encourage them to revolt.

    One of our articles of faith states that we believe in being subject to governments and in honoring and sustaining the law. If you don't like the law, campaign to change it.

    If somebody thinks there's a better way to help uninsured or underinsured people than the current proposed system, I think that's fine. But as a nation, we have largely failed in this.
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

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    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    The road to Castledale would never get built. There's no enough capital to justify its existence. And no one would ever live there by choice without a road.

    Considering your industry.......what about the universal service fee?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe's_law

    Funny you bring up USF. For the record a few notes about USF would be prudent:

    1.) USF was originally a private industry answer to the question of how to accomplish universal service under the intellectual underpinnings of Metcalf's Law. USF began as part of the 1934 Telecom Act and it was totally administered between private companies until divestiture of Ma Bell in 1984. Then it became codified by the federal government in 1996. So there is some argument that USF is a user fee rather than a tax and the historical fact is it has genesis amongst private businesses seeking to solve the problem of deploying ubiquitous telecom infrastructure. While USF is now justified using most of the same heartstringing arguments used for most social programs, the origins of it were based upon the belief that the network was more valuable if it were ubiquitously deployed - but back then a greater percentage of the population lived rural.

    2.) Saying that the reality is it is a basic re-distribution from urban areas to rural areas because of the belief that the benefits rural America provides (food sources, power, hot chicks with big ta-tas that are usually very nieve and easy to be taken advantage of) benefit us all. It is often under attack because liberals don't like it because they don't get many votes in the middle of nowhere Montana and Republicans can be against it if they are wound up by Tea Partiers that if you want to live in rural America you pay more for it, harumph! I would often ask my FIL, while he was listening to his right wing stuff, if his experience with USF made him pause for a moment or two when other folks would be advocating for shared social costs for their pet issue. He would always look at me funny.
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I have visited Europe 3 times. Nice place to visit with the exception of France in 1965. What I really liked about Europe is how old it seemed. Very layback and non competitive. I felt in any kind of confrontation I would have the upper hand. Especially in France where the men lay their heads on the women's shoulders instead of vice versa.
    -byu'71

  13. #43
    Senior Member il Padrino Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    I do see a difference. A few months ago, more people voluntarily voted for a Presidential candidate who advocated universal healthcare, than for a candidate who opposed it.

    The government "redistributes wealth" to maintain the military, educate our children, provide fire and police services and build roads.

    Why should I pay for a road to Castle Dale? I never go to Castle Dale? Who the hell ever goes to Castle Dale? Maybe BYU coaches when they were recruiting Shawn Bradley, but that's about it.
    I don't stop in Castle Dale, but I go through Castle Dale in order to visit with family two or three times a year; four if I decide to do the pheasant hunt.
    "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill


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  14. #44
    Senior Member il Padrino Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    The road to Castledale would never get built. There's no enough capital to justify its existence. And no one would ever live there by choice without a road.

    Considering your industry.......what about the universal service fee?
    I'd live in Ferron by choice without a road. I don't have to go through Castle Dale to get there, but it's the faster route.
    "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill


    "I only know what I hear on the news." - Dear Leader

  15. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    There's the "render unto Caesar " scripture. The Jews in Jesus' time didn't like a lot of the Roman laws and Jesus didn't encourage them to revolt.

    One of our articles of faith states that we believe in being subject to governments and in honoring and sustaining the law. If you don't like the law, campaign to change it.

    If somebody thinks there's a better way to help uninsured or underinsured people than the current proposed system, I think that's fine. But as a nation, we have largely failed in this.
    Who said anything about not sustaining the law?? IYou started this thread about fake family in order to get peopple to come over to your political persuasion.

    Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    There's the "render unto Caesar " scripture. The Jews in Jesus' time didn't like a lot of the Roman laws and Jesus didn't encourage them to revolt.

    One of our articles of faith states that we believe in being subject to governments and in honoring and sustaining the law. If you don't like the law, campaign to change it.

    If somebody thinks there's a better way to help uninsured or underinsured people than the current proposed system, I think that's fine. But as a nation, we have largely failed in this.
    Actually, we haven't. Not even close.
    "Remember to double tap"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Who said anything about not sustaining the law?? IYou started this thread about fake family in order to get peopple to come over to your political persuasion.

    Sent from my SGH-T839 using Tapatalk 2
    This is not fake. A real person died. I wasn't particularly close to her, but I still am sad she passed. Most of the people I knew with strong feelings on this are never going to change their minds, let alone by reading one of my posts. I'm just expressing my opinion and feelings, which remain unchanged.
    Last edited by The Fourth Nephite; 01-22-2013 at 01:26 PM.
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

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    Quote Originally Posted by venkman View Post
    Actually, we haven't. Not even close.
    So nobody has died or suffered from lack of medical care in this country?
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

  19. #49
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    So nobody has died or suffered from lack of medical care in this country?
    It certainly doesn't appear to have "largely failed", to borrow a phrase from you.

    http://mappinghistory.uoregon.edu/en...S/US39-01.html
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    Yay! We're #40. USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!!

    [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy"]List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

    Look out Chile, Cuba, and Slovenia. We're coming for you.
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

  21. #51
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    Yay! We're #40. USA!!! USA!!! USA!!!!

    List of countries by life expectancy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Look out Chile, Cuba, and Slovenia. We're coming for you.
    Yeah, if we could weed out things like homicides, suicides and other deaths not due to natural causes we could vault into the top 20. Regardless, the US health care system has not "largely failed". But by all means, keep pouring on the hyperbole.
    Everything in life is an approximation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Yeah, if we could weed out things like homicides, suicides and other deaths not due to natural causes we could vault into the top 20. Regardless, the US health care system has not "largely failed". But by all means, keep pouring on the hyperbole.
    According to this Bloomberg Report:

    http://images.businessweek.com/bloom..._COUNTRIES.pdf

    We are the 33rd healthiest country. The report includes it's methodology. You can see that they looked at a variety of health factors.

    The US spends the most per capita on health care (double most other first world countries) and also has the largest percentage (by far) of GDP spent on healthcare care. For this, I expect more than #40 in life expectancy and #33 in health.

    How can you call this anything but a dismal failure? Geez, Cuba is ahead of us. Cuba?? That's embarrasing.

    If I was a Manager in some competitive field and I had the largest budget by far but was only coming in at #33 and #40, I would be fired in a heartbeat and replaced by somebody more competent. The United States shouldn't be #33 or #40 at anything (not even soccer). We can put a man on the moon, but we're not healthier than Costa Rica. That is an absolute failure.
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

  23. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute View Post
    I'd live in Ferron by choice without a road. I don't have to go through Castle Dale to get there, but it's the faster route.
    I went on a couple dates with a girl from Ferron. Very cute. Good people there.

  24. #54
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    According to this Bloomberg Report:

    http://images.businessweek.com/bloom..._COUNTRIES.pdf

    We are the 33rd healthiest country. The report includes it's methodology. You can see that they looked at a variety of health factors.

    The US spends the most per capita on health care (double most other first world countries) and also has the largest percentage (by far) of GDP spent on healthcare care. For this, I expect more than #40 in life expectancy and #33 in health.

    How can you call this anything but a dismal failure? Geez, Cuba is ahead of us. Cuba?? That's embarrasing.

    If I was a Manager in some competitive field and I had the largest budget by far but was only coming in at #33 and #40, I would be fired in a heartbeat and replaced by somebody more competent. The United States shouldn't be #33 or #40 at anything (not even soccer). We can put a man on the moon, but we're not healthier than Costa Rica. That is an absolute failure.
    Did you not read the methodology in the link you used? There's a whole bunch of things included there that don't have anything to do with the availability and affordability of health care. Remove the noise from your data and then get back to me. Thanks in advance.
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  25. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    According to this Bloomberg Report:

    http://images.businessweek.com/bloom..._COUNTRIES.pdf

    We are the 33rd healthiest country. The report includes it's methodology. You can see that they looked at a variety of health factors.

    The US spends the most per capita on health care (double most other first world countries) and also has the largest percentage (by far) of GDP spent on healthcare care. For this, I expect more than #40 in life expectancy and #33 in health.

    How can you call this anything but a dismal failure? Geez, Cuba is ahead of us. Cuba?? That's embarrasing.

    If I was a Manager in some competitive field and I had the largest budget by far but was only coming in at #33 and #40, I would be fired in a heartbeat and replaced by somebody more competent. The United States shouldn't be #33 or #40 at anything (not even soccer). We can put a man on the moon, but we're not healthier than Costa Rica. That is an absolute failure.
    I wouldn't take this study as gospel truth, but if you want to that's fine.

    I'd say Americans are generally as healthy as they choose to be. I agree we can get healthcare as a % of GDP down, mostly through market reforms as anti-market regulations are what is pushing costs higher.

    I'm still not sure what you mean by absolute failure. If it's some healthcare costs per person ratio then I agree it's bad. If it's access to quality healthcare, even for the poor and uninsured, I think we're pretty good.
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    Semper infra dignitatem PaloAltoCougar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    Did you not read the methodology in the link you used? There's a whole bunch of things included there that don't have anything to do with the availability and affordability of health care. Remove the noise from your data and then get back to me. Thanks in advance.
    Even before reading the methodology, I assumed the US's status as a mere honorable mention in the Top 25 wasn't due to health care deficiencies, but rather to lifestyle issues, which the methodology certainly confirms. I'd like to see the world rankings with respect to the consumption of saturated fats, processed grains, corn syrup and sugars. I suspect we kick the world's ass, which on average is much smaller than our own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    Even before reading the methodology, I assumed the US's status as a mere honorable mention in the Top 25 wasn't due to health care deficiencies, but rather to lifestyle issues, which the methodology certainly confirms. I'd like to see the world rankings with respect to the consumption of saturated fats, processed grains, corn syrup and sugars. I suspect we kick the world's ass, which on average is much smaller than our own.
    If the health care system is supposed to save us from ourselves no matter how much we abuse and kill ourselves, then I guess it might be the abject failure the Nth Nephite claims it is.

    If, however, if it should merely be able to extend and improve the quality of living for otherwise healthy, temperate individuals......
    Everything in life is an approximation.

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    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
    Even before reading the methodology, I assumed the US's status as a mere honorable mention in the Top 25 wasn't due to health care deficiencies, but rather to lifestyle issues, which the methodology certainly confirms. I'd like to see the world rankings with respect to the consumption of saturated fats, processed grains, corn syrup and sugars. I suspect we kick the world's ass, which on average is much smaller than our own.
    Great point...which leads me to my next thought:

    The US has failed terribly at promoting healthy diets. Thank you politicians and ranchers.

    http://www.pcrm.org/good-medicine/20...-the-farm-bill
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

  29. #59
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Fourth Nephite View Post
    Great point...which leads me to my next thought:

    The US has failed terribly at promoting healthy diets. Thank you politicians and ranchers.

    http://www.pcrm.org/good-medicine/20...-the-farm-bill
    Or perhaps the search for Sooner's god to protect us from ourselves is a foolish endeavor and it is time we all exercise some responsibility for ourselves. Here is a thought...when you have a lump on your breast and there are others depending upon you go get yourself checked out. Get the money to pay it from family or your church but don't wait for someone else to take care of you.

    On the other hand once health care becomes a right and thus the public has a financial interest in what you eat, and how frequently you exercise, then we can regulate the hell out of that too!
    Do Your Damnedest In An Ostentatious Manner All The Time!
    -General George S. Patton

    I have visited Europe 3 times. Nice place to visit with the exception of France in 1965. What I really liked about Europe is how old it seemed. Very layback and non competitive. I felt in any kind of confrontation I would have the upper hand. Especially in France where the men lay their heads on the women's shoulders instead of vice versa.
    -byu'71

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    Senior Member The Fourth Nephite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    If the health care system is supposed to save us from ourselves no matter how much we abuse and kill ourselves, then I guess it might be the abject failure the Nth Nephite claims it is.

    If, however, if it should merely be able to extend and improve the quality of living for otherwise healthy, temperate individuals......
    Healthy, temperate Americans are in the minority. Quit living in your fantasy world and address reality.
    "I'm going to go back to CUF now, where the censorship is less, the average IQ is higher, and we don't have to deal with so much of this nonsense. Goodbye." - SoonerCoug

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