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  1. #1
    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Like everyone horrified by the recent events at Sandy Hook Elementary, I want to find some explanation, however hard to swallow, some lesson or ground for progress to take from this horror. So, this piece from today's Washington Post caught my eye:

    By Peter Hermann and Michael S. Rosenwald,

    Saturday, December 15,

    NEWTOWN, Conn. — Adam Lanza lived among guns.

    His mother, Nancy, collected them. She showed them off to her landscaper.

    “Guns were her hobby,” said Dan Holmes, the landscaper of Nancy Lanza’s sprawling yard here on the edge of town. “She told me she liked the single-mindedness of shooting.”

    Holmes said she even spoke of taking her son to the firing range to practice his aim.

    As details of her son’s troubled life trickled out Saturday, the day after he gunned down 20 children and six adults at Sandy Hook Elementary School and his mother at their home, the portrait emerging is one of a detached killer who knew his way around a trigger and of a family that feared outsiders in the home.

    * * *

    Her former sister-in law, Marsha Lanza, told the Chicago Sun-Times outside her home in Crystal Lake, Ill., that Nancy Lanza wanted guns for protection. “She prepared for the worst,” Marsha Lanza told the newspaper. “I didn’t know that they [the guns] would be used on her.”
    I tend to land on the libertarian side of issues. So I am sypathetic to gunowners' interests -- though I don't own guns, never have, have shot one maybe three times (at a couple of Utah rifle ranges), and have always been timid to do it, worrying about the kick, etc.

    But also I am for freedom of consenting adults to have sex. And it seems we hear a lot more admonition about responsible sex than responsible gun ownership and use among those who claim to own guns purely for target practice, hunting and/or self-defense.

    I suppose guns do provide a measure of increased protection to ordinary folks outside of law enforcement. But it seems I hear a lot more about guns being deployed by seemingly ordinary folks to kill family members or other innocent ordinary folks than I do about a gun actually providing a means to the ownener's prtecting himself or herself from violent crime.

    One thing that that seems common sense and can be learned from Sandy Hook, is that having the kinds of firearms that Adam Lanza was exposed to around his house makes it easier to do what he did.

    There has been a lot of false information come out in the early frantic hours since the Sandy Hook catastrophe. I recogize that the stories now circulating about Nancy Lanza's gun fettishes and multiple gun and live ammo stashes around her suburban house and gun love indoctrination of her severely mentally ill son may turn out to be totally false.

    But if this information is true, Nancy Lanza does not seem to have engaged in responsible gun ownership. Certainly she knew better than anyone the fragile quality of her son's mental state, his loneliness and rage. It seems to have been questionable judgment to have included in her home schooling of wretched Adam Lanza a familiarity with and love of guns that can murder and main dozens of people in a matter of minutes or even seconds.

    So whatever the facts, I hope something that comes of this is increased gun owners' awareness of the need to be responsible gun owners; to exercise sound judgment. Maybe like alcohol, marijuana, tobacco and sex, the solution isn't banishment, but education and increased enlightenment that the high of gun ownership carries risk and tremendous responsilbity.
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 12-15-2012 at 11:36 PM.
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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Recently a BYU professor's own family member broke into his firearms stash and used it to murder the professor and his wife -- apparenlty in part to steal the guns.
    Nope. They were innocent. After sitting in jail for several months somebody else confessed to the murder.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54...ouple.html.csp
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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Nope. They were innocent. After sitting in jail for several months somebody else confessed to the murder.

    http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/54...ouple.html.csp
    Good for them. What have I told you about prosecutors. What a nightmare, but unfortunately this happens. I'll redact that part from my essay.
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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Good for them. What have I told you about prosecutors. What a nightmare, but unfortunately this happens. I'll redact that part from my essay.
    Yeah, it was quite a shocker. Every bit of news and evidence released by the police department pointed to the son and his wife and they were just waiting for trial. It looked like and slam dunk case. The son and his wife claimed that they were held hostage by two men right after the murder when he went to his father's house, but the way the story came out, it sounded fishy. Then a couple of guys were arrested out in Vernal on some other charge and they confessed to the murder, and it was exactly as the son had claimed.

    How awful would that be to be falsely accused of murdering your father?

    (sorry for the hijack - I realize this has little to do with the point you were making)
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  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    though I don't own guns, never have, have shot one maybe three times (at a couple of Utah rifle ranges), and have always been timid to do it, worrying about the kick, etc.
    There are guns out there so exquisite that if you had an inkling of what you are missing you would be crushed and debilitated under an intolerable weight of despair and regret.
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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Yeah, it was quite a shocker. Every bit of news and evidence released by the police department pointed to the son and his wife and they were just waiting for trial. It looked like and slam dunk case. The son and his wife claimed that they were held hostage by two men right after the murder when he went to his father's house, but the way the story came out, it sounded fishy. Then a couple of guys were arrested out in Vernal on some other charge and they confessed to the murder, and it was exactly as the son had claimed.

    How awful would that be to be falsely accused of murdering your father?

    (sorry for the hijack - I realize this has little to do with the point you were making)
    Thank you for clearing that up. It's an interesting story too.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    I understand your point but I think your lack of involvement with the gun culture also separates you from the many points where the typical gun owner is encouraged to be responsible. That's not meant to be a comment on the subject shooting, as I know little about the details. But I think it is incorrect to suggest that the predominate influences in the gun ownership arena lack a focus on safety and responsibility.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Motor Boatin' SOB Devildog's Avatar
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    There is much knee-jerk reaction out there right now.

    People are hurting and looking for some way to react.

    This will pass with time.

    As a nation we are not going to give up our right to protect ourselves... period.
    "We should remember that one man is much the same as another, and that he is best who is trained in the severest school."
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    Known Heterosexual RC Vikings's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devildog View Post

    As a nation we are not going to give up our right to protect ourselves... period.
    It seems the only people we need to protect ourselves from is us.

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    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    Thousand-dollar tax on each bullet. That's the solution. Make bullets a luxury. And no one would mind spending 1000 dollars on a bullet if they are really defending their lives. In fact, the government could give a tax break if someone actually has to expend bullets while using their gun in self-defense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RC Vikings View Post
    It seems the only people we need to protect ourselves from is us.
    That seems vacuous. Care to expound?

    As to the larger point, responsibility is very important. And most gun owners are.

    As to the cries for gun control, we have 300 million and they are not going away. And the evidence doesn't seem to support the idea that taking them away makes us safer.

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    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    And the evidence doesn't seem to support the idea that taking them away makes us safer.
    Wrong. Gun ownership correlates with successful suicide--not to mention accidents. You're right that it doesn't correlate with murder rate.
    That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    Thousand-dollar tax on each bullet. That's the solution. Make bullets a luxury. And no one would mind spending 1000 dollars on a bullet if they are really defending their lives. In fact, the government could give a tax break if someone actually has to expend bullets while using their gun in self-defense.
    Thousand dollar tax on each abortion. That's the solution. (It will save more lives, too.)
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    вот так штука CardiacCoug's Avatar
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    Agreed that guns aren't going away and that although most gun owners are responsible there are a lot that aren't. I talked to a guy a few weeks ago who said something like "Hell no I don't lock my guns up because what good is it if I need it quickly and it's locked up?" At the same time I think it's ridiculous for people who live and work in very safe environments to tell people who unfortunately have to live and/or work in much less safe environments that they can't defend themselves.

    To me the better point to be made out of this horrible tragedy and also the shooting of Gabby Giffords and others in Arizona is that we've got to improve mental health services in this country and find a better way to keep mentally disturbed people who haven't yet committed crimes from getting guns.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiacCoug View Post
    Agreed that guns aren't going away and that although most gun owners are responsible there are a lot that aren't. I talked to a guy a few weeks ago who said something like "Hell no I don't lock my guns up because what good is it if I need it quickly and it's locked up?" At the same time I think it's ridiculous for people who live and work in very safe environments to tell people who unfortunately have to live and/or work in much less safe environments that they can't defend themselves.

    To me the better point to be made out of this horrible tragedy and also the shooting of Gabby Giffords and others in Arizona is that we've got to improve mental health services in this country and find a better way to keep mentally disturbed people who haven't yet committed crimes from getting guns.
    Bingo.
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    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Thousand dollar tax on each abortion. That's the solution. (It will save more lives, too.)
    I'm OK with that if all the tax dollars go toward handing out free birth control on every street corner.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    Thousand-dollar tax on each bullet. That's the solution. Make bullets a luxury. And no one would mind spending 1000 dollars on a bullet if they are really defending their lives. In fact, the government could give a tax break if someone actually has to expend bullets while using their gun in self-defense.
    While you are at it you might as well advocate bringing back prohibition, the "noble experiment" that was undertaken to reduce crime and corruption and to solve social problems in America. As you may know, prohibition was a huge failure and simply made the problems it was attempting to solve worse. Your huge tax on bullets would most likely just create a new black market for criminals to exploit and more open killing fields (aka. "gun free zones") where only the criminals have guns. Of course, the government could try to control this bullet black market. In that case, I suspect your idea would work about as well as the war on drugs with similar costs to fight.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    While you are at it you might as well advocate bringing back prohibition, the "noble experiment" that was undertaken to reduce crime and corruption and to solve social problems in America. As you may know, prohibition was a huge failure and simply made the problems it was attempting to solve worse. Your huge tax on bullets would most likely just create a new black market for criminals to exploit and more open killing fields (aka. "gun free zones") where only the criminals have guns. Of course, the government could try to control this bullet black market. In that case, I suspect your idea would work about as well as the war on drugs with similar costs to fight.
    There are even simpler reasons why a thousand dollar tax on bullets (or abortions) is a silly idea. There are any number of restrictions we can tolerate so long as they advance important purposes, but you can't place a restriction on the exercise of a constitutional right when the sole purpose of the restriction is to prevent the exercise of that right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    Thousand-dollar tax on each bullet. That's the solution. Make bullets a luxury. And no one would mind spending 1000 dollars on a bullet if they are really defending their lives. In fact, the government could give a tax break if someone actually has to expend bullets while using their gun in self-defense.
    [youtube]OuX-nFmL0II[/youtube]

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    As if Republicans didn't already have enough self-inflicted wounds being on the wrong side of every other social issue, now this.

    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...?smid=pl-share
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    Comparisons with Western Europe's low murder by gunfire rate are skewed because we are a multi-cultural post-colonial Empire nation.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Comparisons with Western Europe's low murder by gunfire rate are skewed because we are a multi-cultural post-colonial Empire nation.
    Western European countries are multi-cultural. They are very culturally diverse.

    Also, your comment that multi-culturalism leads to more domestic violence is offensive.

    What a moranic comment.
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    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    Western European countries are multi-cultural. They are very culturally diverse. What a moranic comment.
    I've been all over Western Europe, more than once. They have nothing approaching our level of mutli-culturalism. We are the most diverse nation on the friggin' planet AND we're post-colonial AND we're Empire. Having a few hundred thousand former colonials doesn't equate with having a community from every single nation on the earth, with being an Anglo-Saxon realm that's also the third most populous Spanish-speaking country in the world.

    Your definition of multi-cultural and mine do not match up; don't get personally insulting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    Wrong. Gun ownership correlates with successful suicide--not to mention accidents. You're right that it doesn't correlate with murder rate.
    So I was not wrong, but right. You and I agree. I said "And the evidence doesn't seem to support the idea that taking them away makes us safer." Successful suicide rates have no effect on my, your, our safety.

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    Joycelyn Elders Supporter SoonerCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob View Post
    So I was not wrong, but right. You and I agree. I said "And the evidence doesn't seem to support the idea that taking them away makes us safer." Successful suicide rates have no effect on my, your, our safety.
    Major depression is a common enough problem that guns are still a huge safety issue for society in general.

    The psychological and societal effects of mass shootings also shouldn't be disregarded, even if they don't have a big effect on the murder rate nationally.
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  27. #27

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    I feel like I'm up in the air on this issue. I'm not anxious to take anyones guns. But I also think that the utility of weapons that can unload a lot of ammunition in a short amount of time (so basically anything that is not a double barrel shotgun or bolt action and holds just a few rounds) is very, very low. And most of the justifications for them would apply equally to saren gas. I wonder where the middle ground is.

    I think I'm also ready to say that while, again, I would never want to see all guns outlawed. I don't think the rationale behind the second amendment much exists in 2012.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Goatnapper'96's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    I feel like I'm up in the air on this issue. I'm not anxious to take anyones guns. But I also think that the utility of weapons that can unload a lot of ammunition in a short amount of time (so basically anything that is not a double barrel shotgun or bolt action and holds just a few rounds) is very, very low. And most of the justifications for them would apply equally to saren gas. I wonder where the middle ground is.

    I think I'm also ready to say that while, again, I would never want to see all guns outlawed. I don't think the rationale behind the second amendment much exists in 2012.
    Why does the utility matter? Either banning them will increase our collective security or it won't. I am less than convinced it will, and IMO the burden of proof is on those who want the government to further regulate/control these things to prove that such action will lead to the intended benefit. Not to sit here and argue about the utility of the damn things. The issue, to at least me, boils down to whether or not somebody can convince me that a somewhat free society giving up a freedom, and admittedly not a freedom I am particularly inclined to exercise, will provide me the security promised and is worth that loss. It reminds me of the same mentality that led to the Patriot Act.
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  29. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goatnapper'96 View Post
    Why does the utility matter? Either banning them will increase our collective security or it won't. I am less than convinced it will, and IMO the burden of proof is on those who want the government to further regulate/control these things to prove that such action will lead to the intended benefit. Not to sit here and argue about the utility of the damn things. The issue, to at least me, boils down to whether or not somebody can convince me that a somewhat free society giving up a freedom, and admittedly not a freedom I am particularly inclined to exercise, will provide me the security promised and is worth that loss. It reminds me of the same mentality that led to the Patriot Act.
    Agreed.

    Almost all mass killings have happend in sitting duck gun free zones. Gun free zones have been a spectacular failure in reducing gun violence. It's time to re-look at that, rather than depriving us of our liberties.

    And for UD, a well-armed populace is the ultimate check on government tyranny. I'd say the 2A is more appropriate than ever.
    Last edited by venkman; 12-18-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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    Motor Boatin' SOB Devildog's Avatar
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    The British have no gun rights. They are not allowed to carry knives either.

    They still have a lot of people getting shot and stabbed though.

    For years now, they have considered legislation to ban long kitchen knives due to all the stabbings.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm

    They probably need to consider banning forks and rocks too.
    Last edited by Devildog; 12-18-2012 at 12:34 PM.
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