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Thread: Guns

  1. #1141
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    It sounds like with penalties, we're getting into the war on drugs outcome, with many people incarcerated for life.
    Well, https://everytownresearch.org/gun-vi...y-the-numbers/ 62% of all gun deaths were from suicides from 2011-2015. That's 105,000 out of 169,000. Think about that. Of those, I'd bet that close to the full amount were from handguns. 105,000 people in 5 years....that's nuts. There's no way to know for sure, but I bet that a huge portion of those people would still be alive if they didn't have access to a handgun. The suicides alone are reason enough to drastically limit access to handguns.

    Maybe we don't allow ownership of handguns, but leasing of them....say, during hunting season people may lease them from hunting supply companies. You can get a long-term lease, say, 20 years, available for check out during hunting season if you own a gun safe. Every 20 years, you need a psych evaluation--at your expense--to renew.

    Or, no handguns, period, until age 35 (same age as POTUS).

    Or, no new handguns, period. Old ones, properly registered, are grandfathered in. Massive transfer fees. Then we slowly whittle down the supply over time. If a gun is used in a suicide or crime, regardless of who owns it, it's forfeit.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  2. #1142
    Senior Member Crockett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It's funny that people think "taking away guns" is how Hitler rose to power. Read a few damn history books, people.
    Yeah, super funny.

    Gun Control in the Third Reich by Stephen P. Halbrook is on my bookshelf. You should check it out. It doesn't claim that Hitler rose to power through gun control, but it documents how Germany's gun control policies were intentionally used in coordination with its policies to persecute the Jews and the Nazi's political opponents. It shows the real connection between disarming policies and oppression. The Nazis did see the disarming of the enemies of the state as an essential component of consolidating their power.

  3. #1143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Yeah, super funny.

    Gun Control in the Third Reich by Stephen P. Halbrook is on my bookshelf. You should check it out. It doesn't claim that Hitler rose to power through gun control, but it documents how Germany's gun control policies were intentionally used in coordination with its policies to persecute the Jews and the Nazi's political opponents. It shows the real connection between disarming policies and oppression. The Nazis did see the disarming of the enemies of the state as an essential component of consolidating their power.
    Of course they are going to take away the guns of the Jews. They don't want the SS officers to be shot when they come to haul them away. But if you think the Jews could have stopped Nazism with a few rifles, you have lost your mind.

    Hitler consolidated power mainly through a political process. His main weapons were nationalism, racism, and anti-communism.
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  4. #1144
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  5. #1145

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Hitler consolidated power mainly through a political process. His main weapons were nationalism, racism, and anti-communism.
    Ah, there's Trump's problem. He's only using two of those three pillars.

  6. #1146

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Yeah a civil war could never happen here. And our country feels so unified these days.

    One of the big problems with major gun control is that once the 2d amendment is gone I can't imagine it would ever make it back and the fundamental intent of the 2d amendment -- to resist tyranny -- is not a problem that would manifest overnight. It's something that could happen in 25-50 years though after the population becomes more dependent on the govt / servile and then it's too late. We pretend like nothing bad could ever happen here. History shows us that that is a foolish notion.

    OK fess up. You're the guy quoted in the trib article, right?

    Are any of those scenarios possible? Sure. Are they likely? No. There are so many more realistic scenarios that could imperil the country.

    And c'mon. You've seen this story before. When the citizenry get all uppity about their rights and take up arms, the strong arm of the law always wins. Is it really the AR-15 wielding citizens who are saving us from civil war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Well, it was either Trump or Hillary. I chose wisely.

    The left is the one that needs to look in the mirror about the divisions in this country. It's a big reason why he got elected -- political correctness, dividing people into victim groups, demonizing conservatives as evil / horrible people, the white privilege BS, etc. Imagine how much better this country would be right now if the left was introspective about why they lost instead of this fake Russia collusion / stolen election narrative and this year and half hissy fit.

    And if you really do think Trump is Hitler and you want to resist, why in the world would you freely give up your power and rights to such a dangerous man?
    This.is.hilarious. Please tell me which national political figure on the left is as bad a demagogue as Trump is.

  7. #1147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It's funny that people think "taking away guns" is how Hitler rose to power. Read a few damn history books, people.
    Who runs on the platform of "let's take away your guns" (other than the democrats)? That is dumb.
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  8. #1148
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Who runs on the platform of "let's take away your guns" (other than the democrats)? That is dumb.
    Well, there is the answer that has nothing to do with my post. But you forgot the meaningless link or cartoon. Come on, man!
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  9. #1149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    OK fess up. You're the guy quoted in the trib article, right?

    Are any of those scenarios possible? Sure. Are they likely? No. There are so many more realistic scenarios that could imperil the country.

    And c'mon. You've seen this story before. When the citizenry get all uppity about their rights and take up arms, the strong arm of the law always wins. Is it really the AR-15 wielding citizens who are saving us from civil war?



    This.is.hilarious. Please tell me which national political figure on the left is as bad a demagogue as Trump is.
    The Crock is harmless... Y'all should check out https://www.ldsfreedomforum.com

    On President Nelson's statement on the Florida shooting, for example:

    It goes to show that even prophets can be uninformed.
    Did President Nelson have armed guards around him when he said that?
    Someone asks, "Why do we need assault rifles?"

    Because we have a God-given right to defend ourselves from every predator, including tyrannical governments that like to load people up onto boxcars and haul them off to gas chambers.
    Captain Moroni is rolling in his grave knowing everything he taught us is for naught.
    Great entertainment over there!
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  10. #1150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Well, there is the answer that has nothing to do with my post. But you forgot the meaningless link or cartoon. Come on, man!
    I am saying it is dumb to think that Hilter (aka, Drumpf) rose to power on the platform of taking away guns or gun control.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
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    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  11. #1151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I am saying it is dumb to think that Hilter (aka, Drumpf) rose to power on the platform of taking away guns or gun control.
    OK, but that is beside the point. I don't think anybody made such a claim. But I guess it gave you an opening to #whataboutdemocrats, so there you go.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  12. #1152

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Ok, wuap, JL, OG, etc. You guys all own guns and understand them, and you've given this some thought, so I would like your opinions on two problems that I see as huge obstacles to the effectiveness of further restrictions:

    1) There is an enormous supply of semi-automatic weapons, large-capacity magazines, etc. in circulation. To restrict these would seem to require getting them out of circulation. If you disagree, I'm interested in why. Otherwise, how do you propose we get these things out of circulation if you favor restrictions, and
    past proliferation is not a good enough reason to encourage continued proliferation. i also support voluntary buybacks.

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    2) Laws are already being broken, so what would you propose to make further restrictions effective? Specifically, the Vegas shooter was using an illegal weapon, and it's pretty easy to modify legal weapons to be illegal. Also, neither the Texas shooter nor the Florida shooter should have been able to purchase weapons given their history. It seems that helping dealers and cops enforce existing laws would be largely eliminate the need for further laws.
    something approaching strict liability for gun sellers is a good step. there are too many dealers, many of them are dumb. cops should have the authority to temporarily remove weapons from the possession of somebody with mental illness or that has made threats (short of a commitment proceeding).
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  13. #1153
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    past proliferation is not a good enough reason to encourage continued proliferation. i also support voluntary buybacks.



    something approaching strict liability for gun sellers is a good step. there are too many dealers, many of them are dumb. cops should have the authority to temporarily remove weapons from the possession of somebody with mental illness or that has made threats (short of a commitment proceeding).
    I agree.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  14. #1154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Yeah a civil war could never happen here. And our country feels so unified these days.

    One of the big problems with major gun control is that once the 2d amendment is gone I can't imagine it would ever make it back and the fundamental intent of the 2d amendment -- to resist tyranny -- is not a problem that would manifest overnight. It's something that could happen in 25-50 years though after the population becomes more dependent on the govt / servile and then it's too late. We pretend like nothing bad could ever happen here. History shows us that that is a foolish notion.
    i mean this in the nicest way possible, but you are fucking loony tunes and should seek prolonged mental health assistance from the most accomplished specialists available. your idiot reptile brain should should be studied by scientists to determine where evolution went wrong such that you're having fantasies that combine patrick swayze and lavoy finicum.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  15. #1155
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Yeah a civil war could never happen here. And our country feels so unified these days.

    One of the big problems with major gun control is that once the 2d amendment is gone I can't imagine it would ever make it back and the fundamental intent of the 2d amendment -- to resist tyranny -- is not a problem that would manifest overnight. It's something that could happen in 25-50 years though after the population becomes more dependent on the govt / servile and then it's too late. We pretend like nothing bad could ever happen here. History shows us that that is a foolish notion.
    Yep. Everyone remember that one time there was a civil war in the United States and the North invaded the South without any reason whatsoever, and then took all of the guns from the South, and executed all of the soldiers who fought in the Rebellion? They then oppressed Southerners for the next 200+ years, disenfranchising them, and under-representing them in Congress. They also refused to share the tax proceeds from the North and West with the South in any way. Tyranny is the American way...history shows us this.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  16. #1156
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Yep. Everyone remember that one time there was a civil war in the United States and the North invaded the South without any reason whatsoever, and then took all of the guns from the South, and executed all of the soldiers who fought in the Rebellion? They then oppressed Southerners for the next 200+ years, disenfranchising them, and under-representing them in Congress. They also refused to share the tax proceeds from the North and West with the South in any way. Tyranny is the American way...history shows us this.
    You typed a lot of words here, and so must have had some point. But I couldn't tell you what it is.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

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    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    You typed a lot of words here, and so must have had some point. But I couldn't tell you what it is.
    Satire. Also, I called the jerk store and they said that they never called me like you said they had.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  18. #1158
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    You typed a lot of words here, and so must have had some point. But I couldn't tell you what it is.
    Come on, man! That was funny.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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  19. #1159

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    past proliferation is not a good enough reason to encourage continued proliferation. i also support voluntary buybacks.
    But isn't there a difference between "encourage" and "allow"? I don't think allowing people to own weapons is necessarily encouraging them. I'm looking at this from a math perspective. Since 1998, there have been over 250 million background checks for firearms, which puts the total in circulation well above the 300 million number often thrown around. Say 10% of those are semi-automatic weapons, and you still have 25 million automatic weapons, and three to ten times that many magazines. The NRA membership alone nearly doubles the existing federal, state, and local law enforcement, so a government confiscation effort would be outgunned and out-manned. In any case, We know from the Bundy fiasco that there are clearly enough crazy people to arm themselves and fight confiscation, so it would at the very least be a bloodbath. For these reasons, I don't see confiscation as a reasonable option.

    Without confiscation, there are so many weapons in circulation that it would be easy for bad people to obtain one. Research on the previous assault weapon ban demonstrated that it would take years for a simple ban to have any real effect. If anything, the threat of losing them encourages gun purchases and puts more into circulation. Again, we can't ignore what is happening, but these things seem to me to be obstacles that make simple bans/restrictions pretty much impotent. I do like the idea of a gun buyback.

    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    something approaching strict liability for gun sellers is a good step. there are too many dealers, many of them are dumb. cops should have the authority to temporarily remove weapons from the possession of somebody with mental illness or that has made threats (short of a commitment proceeding).
    I like this idea. It needs to go further, though, as a lot of the failure has been on the law enforcement side. The failure was especially evident for the Texas church and Florida school shooters. They should clearly have been flagged.

    Something has to be done, because we can't keep piling up dead kids. Also, as someone who depends on a semi-automatic handgun for protection I don't want crazy people to cause my right to defend myself and my livestock to be taken away. I honestly don't see a realistic fix-all for any of this.

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  20. #1160
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    But isn't there a difference between "encourage" and "allow"? I don't think allowing people to own weapons is necessarily encouraging them. I'm looking at this from a math perspective. Since 1998, there have been over 250 million background checks for firearms, which puts the total in circulation well above the 300 million number often thrown around. Say 10% of those are semi-automatic weapons, and you still have 25 million automatic weapons, and three to ten times that many magazines. The NRA membership alone nearly doubles the existing federal, state, and local law enforcement, so a government confiscation effort would be outgunned and out-manned. In any case, We know from the Bundy fiasco that there are clearly enough crazy people to arm themselves and fight confiscation, so it would at the very least be a bloodbath. For these reasons, I don't see confiscation as a reasonable option.

    Without confiscation, there are so many weapons in circulation that it would be easy for bad people to obtain one. Research on the previous assault weapon ban demonstrated that it would take years for a simple ban to have any real effect. If anything, the threat of losing them encourages gun purchases and puts more into circulation. Again, we can't ignore what is happening, but these things seem to me to be obstacles that make simple bans/restrictions pretty much impotent. I do like the idea of a gun buyback.
    It would definitely take a long time. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

    I don't know what the answer is. Some kind of grandfathering with a buyback program?
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  21. #1161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It would definitely take a long time. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

    I don't know what the answer is. Some kind of grandfathering with a buyback program?
    Buybacks are great for getting all those old, worthless guns off the street... You know, the really dangerous ones.

    Gun buybacks popular but ineffective, experts say

    The rifles, pistols and shotguns always look impressive when they're displayed at news conferences celebrating the end of gun buyback campaigns.


    Spread across tables or piled high into overflowing stacks, all those weapons reinforce the notion that trading cash for guns works. It gets guns off the street, organizers say, and makes the city safer.


    The problem, according to years of research, is that it does neither.
    [...]
    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ctive/1829165/

    The FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA/DHS needs to kick in doors and take the guns. That would get the job done in short order. It's time to give your guns to Hitler.
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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  22. #1162
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    Just catching up here... did The Crock really say "the white privilege BS?"
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  24. #1164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Buybacks are great for getting all those old, worthless guns off the street... You know, the really dangerous ones.


    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ctive/1829165/

    The FBI/CIA/ATF/NSA/DHS needs to kick in doors and take the guns. That would get the job done in short order. It's time to give your guns to Hitler.
    Those are small-scale limited programs. Of course they don't work.
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  25. #1165
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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    i mean this in the nicest way possible, but you are fucking loony tunes and should seek prolonged mental health assistance from the most accomplished specialists available. your idiot reptile brain should should be studied by scientists to determine where evolution went wrong such that you're having fantasies that combine patrick swayze and lavoy finicum.
    Yeah, I am the mental one here.

    You have done this with me and others, but you regularly insert words and thoughts into my mouth and mind, respectively, that I have not said (written) or thought. I say it's foolish and disconnected from history to say that bad things could NEVER happen here and you run with that to think I have fantasies about bad things happening here.

    I have seen you go bonkers at people on this board multiple times and you regularly insult anyone who disagrees with you. You have never met me and you don't know me. You have posted on this board over 13,000 times. Check yourself and get a life, man.

  26. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Yeah, I am the mental one here.

    You have done this with me and others, but you regularly insert words and thoughts into my mouth and mind, respectively, that I have not said (written) or thought. I say it's foolish and disconnected from history to say that bad things could NEVER happen here and you run with that to think I have fantasies about bad things happening here.

    I have seen you go bonkers at people on this board multiple times and you regularly insult anyone who disagrees with you. You have never met me and you don't know me. You have posted on this board over 13,000 times. Check yourself and get a life, man.
    FTR, I can confirm that OG has an outstanding life.

    He also likes to get creative with his insults. Just laugh it off and keep posting.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  27. #1167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Those are small-scale limited programs. Of course they don't work.
    Yeah, they will need to not only buy all the guns but all the CNC milling machines as well! We can't have folks making ghost guns in their garage/shop.

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
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  28. #1168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    It would definitely take a long time. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't do it.

    I don't know what the answer is. Some kind of grandfathering with a buyback program?
    I think the game is attrition, just like with machine guns. In 1934, they were easy to get. Now, they are not. We stop the supply now, they will wear out. They will be used improperly and seized. They will be turned in in voluntary buy backs. But, we must required that every semi-automatic gun be registered, just like all machine guns. Your unrestricteds, on my Class Proposal, no registration, but every other kind must be registered. Anything else is contraband if not, and cannot be grandfathered in. But, we grandfather in the current guns, but make the transfer fees very high to discourage people buying more. In 80 years or so, our descendants will be glad that we took action, just like we're all glad now that kids can't go into a Dick's a buy a Thompson.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/b...ult-style-guns
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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I think the game is attrition, just like with machine guns. In 1934, they were easy to get. Now, they are not. We stop the supply now, they will wear out. They will be used improperly and seized. They will be turned in in voluntary buy backs. But, we must required that every semi-automatic gun be registered, just like all machine guns. Your unrestricteds, on my Class Proposal, no registration, but every other kind must be registered. Anything else is contraband if not, and cannot be grandfathered in. But, we grandfather in the current guns, but make the transfer fees very high to discourage people buying more. In 80 years or so, our descendants will be glad that we took action, just like we're all glad now that kids can't go into a Dick's a buy a Thompson.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/28/b...ult-style-guns
    Agreed.
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