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Thread: Guns

  1. #1111

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    Capture.JPG

  2. #1112

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    would love to see the windage and drop calcs for that shot. i imagine it would be to aim six feet above the moon.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  3. #1113

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    would love to see the windage and drop calcs for that shot. i imagine it would be to aim six feet above the moon.
    It's all in the science of ballistics. And that's why I referenced an area target--not hard to miss.

  4. #1114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    It's all in the science of ballistics. And that's why I referenced an area target--not hard to miss.
    if you’re talking ballistics you can’t ignore that the muzzle velocity of the average 9mm round is 1/3 that of .223. the penetrative characteristics are very different at distance given the difference, as you know. this also all ignoring the more important factors like capacity, optics, barrel durability after thousands of rounds, etc.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  5. #1115

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    Quote Originally Posted by old_gregg View Post
    if you’re talking ballistics you can’t ignore that the muzzle velocity of the average 9mm round is 1/3 that of .223. the penetrative characteristics are very different at distance given the difference, as you know. this also all ignoring the more important factors like capacity, optics, barrel durability after thousands of rounds, etc.
    I concede that an AR-15 is more lethal than a handgun in this case, but he could still do plenty of damage. He only fired 1100 rounds. You could easily swap out pistols if the one you're using is misfiring. You can mount a pistol into a 3D printed frame that acts more like a rifle, and even mount a scope, which would be unnecessary in hitting an area target.

  6. #1116
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Well, I'd like to slow down the transfer of guns, and the guys in stores who go in and ask stuff like, "How many ARs do you have in stock? Five? I'll take them all." Shit like that.

    However, as the day has gone on, I think that inheriting guns shouldn't be taxed to blood relations.
    So the sole purpose is to inhibit possession?

    You might as well tax democrat presses $500 and republican presses $1,000.
    τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

  7. #1117
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    So the sole purpose is to inhibit possession?

    You might as well tax democrat presses $500 and republican presses $1,000.
    The sole purpose is to slow down the transfer of the weapons. The $200 transfer tax on machine guns under the National Firearm Act in June 1934 is equivalent to $3,699.51 today. https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc...6&year2=201801

    The cost is meant to discourage frequent transfers and hording.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  8. #1118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    This is really what you need to restrict and collect up if you're going to make a difference at all in the long run.

    Most of the mass shootings lately have involved AR-15 or equivalent. While the round has more energy, rifles do not have a significant advantage over pistols in close quarters combat. To me they're a wash. The weapon of choice is a submachine gun. So perhaps the people perpetrating these crimes are also drawn to assault rifles out of some mystique or an assumption that they're what is needed to carry out these crimes.

    If all assault rifles were rounded up, what could someone do with pistols? Often these shooters were found with multiple rifles and other guns, only to have used one of them in the commission of their crime. Someone could easily strap on a dozen or so handguns, all locked and loaded with full magazines, easily concealed, and quickly and nimbly deployed in close quarters. You could make a case that the result would be even deadlier.

    The shooter in Dallas was more of a sniper. Pistols would not be the weapon of choice, but any hunting rifle, even single-shot bolt-action would do. The Vegas shooter was shooting on a downward trajectory of about 1200 feet to an area target. This also is well within the range of handguns.

    In short, the AR-15 has some sort of mystique around it that draws the attention of the press, the nation, and probably the perpetrators. And if that's the weapon of choice, maybe getting rid of them helps. But if someone is motivated to kill a lot of people, there will always be a way to do that. Leaving semi-automatic handguns accessible makes that very easy to accomplish.
    I think we need to get rid of semi-automatic handguns. Almost all murders and suicides are with handguns. Do we allow revolvers? What about hunters? Whatever we decide about handguns, I think we need a "one screw-up and you're done" policy.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  9. #1119
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Yes, I'm a regular Crane.
    With your allowance for eliminating transfer costs for inheritance, I'll take back my comment that you hate poor people.

    But something to consider - the fees you are talking about really will effect poor people more than anyone. As much as I understand what you're trying to do - reduce guns changing hands - I'd really hate to see it have such an impact on folks with limited finance.

    If you're really trying to stop the guy who goes to the gun store to pick up 5 AR's (presumably to sell?), then perhaps you allow individuals one free transfer per year, with graduated increased costs for each subsequent transfer within the same 12 month period of time - so that those who really are involved in multiple frequent transfers are disincentivized.

  10. #1120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    With your allowance for eliminating transfer costs for inheritance, I'll take back my comment that you hate poor people.

    But something to consider - the fees you are talking about really will effect poor people more than anyone. As much as I understand what you're trying to do - reduce guns changing hands - I'd really hate to see it have such an impact on folks with limited finance.

    If you're really trying to stop the guy who goes to the gun store to pick up 5 AR's (presumably to sell?), then perhaps you allow individuals one free transfer per year, with graduated increased costs for each subsequent transfer within the same 12 month period of time - so that those who really are involved in multiple frequent transfers are disincentivized.
    How about this...one free transfer every three years with graduated increased costs for each transfer with no ceiling within the same three year period.

    1st= free
    2nd-5th = $500
    6th-10th = $700
    11th-20th = $1000
    20th and above = $3000

    The buyer pays the transfer fee, not the seller.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  11. #1121

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    Gun owners share their feelings about the AR-15 in the Trib:

    https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/02/...un-in-america/

    This guy, whose name (Skousen) fits in with his views, drops some truth:

    “A combat rifle is important to have in your safe in case there is a riot, famine, gang-related home invasion, local terrorism, a civil war or an invasion from a foreign country. Combat rifles enabled the Korean District to protect their businesses during the L.A. race riots, can be used for hunting during famine if necessary, evens the playing field should there be a home invasion by multiple people, could be used to protect against a Tsarnaev-Watertown-type lockdown, is the ‘family musket’ should another Great Britain become too tyrannical, and could be used to protect your family while retreating from a foreign military invasion.”
    I can honestly say those threats don't even crack my top 10 worries about the future of America. I must be missing the signs.

  12. #1122

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    Ok, wuap, JL, OG, etc. You guys all own guns and understand them, and you've given this some thought, so I would like your opinions on two problems that I see as huge obstacles to the effectiveness of further restrictions:

    1) There is an enormous supply of semi-automatic weapons, large-capacity magazines, etc. in circulation. To restrict these would seem to require getting them out of circulation. If you disagree, I'm interested in why. Otherwise, how do you propose we get these things out of circulation if you favor restrictions, and

    2) Laws are already being broken, so what would you propose to make further restrictions effective? Specifically, the Vegas shooter was using an illegal weapon, and it's pretty easy to modify legal weapons to be illegal. Also, neither the Texas shooter nor the Florida shooter should have been able to purchase weapons given their history. It seems that helping dealers and cops enforce existing laws would be largely eliminate the need for further laws.

    I'm truly interested in your thoughts, so please don't view this as some sort of challenge. Obviously, I'm pro-gun, but it is equally obvious that we have to find a way to stop school shootings.

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  13. #1123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Gun owners share their feelings about the AR-15 in the Trib:

    https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/02/...un-in-america/

    This guy, whose name (Skousen) fits in with his views, drops some truth:



    I can honestly say those threats don't even crack my top 10 worries about the future of America. I must be missing the signs.

    Nobody said hog attacks?... wild boars are apesh*t crazy:



    Anything less than an AR-15 will usually just piss them off.
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  14. #1124

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Nobody said hog attacks?... wild boars are apesh*t crazy:



    Anything less than an AR-15 will usually just piss them off.
    OK. A wild hog attack might crack my top 10.

  15. #1125
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy View Post
    Ok, wuap, JL, OG, etc. You guys all own guns and understand them, and you've given this some thought, so I would like your opinions on two problems that I see as huge obstacles to the effectiveness of further restrictions:

    1) There is an enormous supply of semi-automatic weapons, large-capacity magazines, etc. in circulation. To restrict these would seem to require getting them out of circulation. If you disagree, I'm interested in why. Otherwise, how do you propose we get these things out of circulation if you favor restrictions, and

    2) Laws are already being broken, so what would you propose to make further restrictions effective? Specifically, the Vegas shooter was using an illegal weapon, and it's pretty easy to modify legal weapons to be illegal. Also, neither the Texas shooter nor the Florida shooter should have been able to purchase weapons given their history. It seems that helping dealers and cops enforce existing laws would be largely eliminate the need for further laws.

    I'm truly interested in your thoughts, so please don't view this as some sort of challenge. Obviously, I'm pro-gun, but it is equally obvious that we have to find a way to stop school shootings.

    1) Buy the guns and magazines of the people who will sell them. Of the people who won't, let them be grandfathered in, but make their transfer fees if they want to sell them so ASTRONOMICALLY HIGH >$3,000 and increasing yearly with no exemption for inheritance they naturally come out of circulation. And, then any found unregistered are contraband, just like machine guns and "Any Other Weapons" have been under the Firearms Act since 1934, only up the penalties to include a loss of 2nd-Amendment Rights forever.

    2) We create a true database that is funded by transfer fees and a tax on ammunition and that gets maintained properly. Also, if you break this law, I'm all for forfeiture. Like, if we find a gun in your home that you knowingly modified, after you're convicted, the People now own your property, real and personal, at that location. If you use an illegal weapon in a crime, the penalty needs to be so severe that there is no reason to use one. For example, if you rob someone with a firearm, a .9 won't get you 5, it'll get you 50.

    I have to run to class, but these are some initial thoughts.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  16. #1126

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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    1) Buy the guns and magazines of the people who will sell them. Of the people who won't, let them be grandfathered in, but make their transfer fees if they want to sell them so ASTRONOMICALLY HIGH >$3,000 and increasing yearly with no exemption for inheritance they naturally come out of circulation. And, then any found unregistered are contraband, just like machine guns and "Any Other Weapons" have been under the Firearms Act since 1934, only up the penalties to include a loss of 2nd-Amendment Rights forever.

    2) We create a true database that is funded by transfer fees and a tax on ammunition and that gets maintained properly. Also, if you break this law, I'm all for forfeiture. Like, if we find a gun in your home that you knowingly modified, after you're convicted, the People now own your property, real and personal, at that location. If you use an illegal weapon in a crime, the penalty needs to be so severe that there is no reason to use one. For example, if you rob someone with a firearm, a .9 won't get you 5, it'll get you 50.

    I have to run to class, but these are some initial thoughts.
    It sounds like with penalties, we're getting into the war on drugs outcome, with many people incarcerated for life.

  17. #1127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    It sounds like with penalties, we're getting into the war on drugs outcome, with many people incarcerated for life.
    But there's a big difference between recreational drugs and using illegal firearms to commit a crime.

    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Gun owners share their feelings about the AR-15 in the Trib:

    https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/02/...un-in-america/

    This guy, whose name (Skousen) fits in with his views, drops some truth:



    I can honestly say those threats don't even crack my top 10 worries about the future of America. I must be missing the signs.
    Yeah a civil war could never happen here. And our country feels so unified these days.

    One of the big problems with major gun control is that once the 2d amendment is gone I can't imagine it would ever make it back and the fundamental intent of the 2d amendment -- to resist tyranny -- is not a problem that would manifest overnight. It's something that could happen in 25-50 years though after the population becomes more dependent on the govt / servile and then it's too late. We pretend like nothing bad could ever happen here. History shows us that that is a foolish notion.


  19. #1129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Yeah a civil war could never happen here. And our country feels so unified these days.

    One of the big problems with major gun control is that once the 2d amendment is gone I can't imagine it would ever make it back and the fundamental intent of the 2d amendment -- to resist tyranny -- is not a problem that would manifest overnight. It's something that could happen in 25-50 years though after the population becomes more dependent on the govt / servile and then it's too late. We pretend like nothing bad could ever happen here. History shows us that that is a foolish notion.
    Says the guy who voted for Trump, without a hint of irony.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Says the guy who voted for Trump, without a hint of irony.
    Well, it was either Trump or Hillary. I chose wisely.

    The left is the one that needs to look in the mirror about the divisions in this country. It's a big reason why he got elected -- political correctness, dividing people into victim groups, demonizing conservatives as evil / horrible people, the white privilege BS, etc. Imagine how much better this country would be right now if the left was introspective about why they lost instead of this fake Russia collusion / stolen election narrative and this year and half hissy fit.

    And if you really do think Trump is Hitler and you want to resist, why in the world would you freely give up your power and rights to such a dangerous man?

  21. #1131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Well, it was either Trump or Hillary. I chose wisely.

    The left is the one that needs to look in the mirror about the divisions in this country. It's a big reason why he got elected -- political correctness, dividing people into victim groups, demonizing conservatives as evil / horrible people, the white privilege BS, etc. Imagine how much better this country would be right now if the left was introspective about why they lost instead of this fake Russia collusion / stolen election narrative and this year and half hissy fit.

    And if you really do think Trump is Hitler and you want to resist, why in the world would you freely give up your power and rights to such a dangerous man?
    I wouldn't. That is exactly why I didn't vote for him.

    This isn't rocket science.
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  22. #1132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I wouldn't. That is exactly why I didn't vote for him.

    This isn't rocket science.
    Right. It works both ways. So, no overturning the 2d amendment, agreed?

  23. #1133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Well, it was either Trump or Hillary. I chose wisely.

    The left is the one that needs to look in the mirror about the divisions in this country. It's a big reason why he got elected -- political correctness, dividing people into victim groups, demonizing conservatives as evil / horrible people, the white privilege BS, etc. Imagine how much better this country would be right now if the left was introspective about why they lost instead of this fake Russia collusion / stolen election narrative and this year and half hissy fit.

    And if you really do think Trump is Hitler and you want to resist, why in the world would you freely give up your power and rights to such a dangerous man?
    Both sides need to look in the mirror, because both sides are engaging in projection (in the psychoanalytic sense).
    We all trust our own unorthodoxies.

  24. #1134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Right. It works both ways. So, no overturning the 2d amendment, agreed?
    Or ignoring the other 9 of the first ten.

  25. #1135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crockett View Post
    Right. It works both ways. So, no overturning the 2d amendment, agreed?
    No, but I would be fine with much greater restrictions than we have now. I think it is silly to think that a bunch of dudes with shotguns are going to stop a modern army. Or that such a thing is a realistic threat in today's world. There are lots of fully functioning modern democracies in the world involving citizens that aren't loaded with guns.

    Things that are a much bigger threat to democracy:

    1) A president who thinks we should ban specific religions from entering the country.

    2) A presidential who condoned thugs beating up opponents at political rallies.

    3) A president who demonizes a free press.

    Am I describing Hitler or Trump? Hmmm....
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  26. #1136
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    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    1) Buy the guns and magazines of the people who will sell them. Of the people who won't, let them be grandfathered in, but make their transfer fees if they want to sell them so ASTRONOMICALLY HIGH >$3,000 and increasing yearly with no exemption for inheritance they naturally come out of circulation. And, then any found unregistered are contraband, just like machine guns and "Any Other Weapons" have been under the Firearms Act since 1934, only up the penalties to include a loss of 2nd-Amendment Rights forever....

    I have to run to class, but these are some initial thoughts.
    So - the guy who stumbles across an old 20 round AR magazine in the bottom of a trunk that he and his siblings never went through after Dad died is now at risk of losing his 2nd amendment rights forever?

    Backing up, just a little - as I looked through your classifications of firearms and who can own what - you really are focused on recreation and hunting and not so much on self-defense, which is kind of the purpose of the 2nd amendment, no?

    I mean, I own guns. I like to shoot them. And my primary focus is on recreation. But the reason I have the right to own them has nothing to do with recreation and everything to do with "the security of a free state".

    It seems like as soon as we decide that firearms are for recreation, and we limit firearms to those that can/would be used for recreation - eliminating those that would be more defensive in nature - aren't we moving to a place where firearms are like any other recreational tool, to be regulated like any other recreational tool?

    The 2nd amendment may go away some day. Just seems like that day will come much quicker once it is determined that owning firearms is simply for recreation. And I think that any steps in that direction are going to be difficult to pass because of that.

  27. #1137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    No, but I would be fine with much greater restrictions than we have now. I think it is silly to think that a bunch of dudes with shotguns are going to stop a modern army. Or that such a thing is a realistic threat in today's world. There are lots of fully functioning modern democracies in the world involving citizens that aren't loaded with guns.

    Things that are a much bigger threat to democracy:

    1) A president who thinks we should ban specific religions from entering the country.

    2) A presidential who condoned thugs beating up opponents at political rallies.

    3) A president who demonizes a free press.

    Am I describing Hitler or Trump? Hmmm....
    What I don't understand is why y'all are wanting to give your guns to Hitler without any kind of hesitation... That didn't work out too well for some people the last time that happened but don't let me stop you, Dude.
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  28. #1138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddie View Post
    So - the guy who stumbles across an old 20 round AR magazine in the bottom of a trunk that he and his siblings never went through after Dad died is now at risk of losing his 2nd amendment rights forever?

    Backing up, just a little - as I looked through your classifications of firearms and who can own what - you really are focused on recreation and hunting and not so much on self-defense, which is kind of the purpose of the 2nd amendment, no?

    I mean, I own guns. I like to shoot them. And my primary focus is on recreation. But the reason I have the right to own them has nothing to do with recreation and everything to do with "the security of a free state".

    It seems like as soon as we decide that firearms are for recreation, and we limit firearms to those that can/would be used for recreation - eliminating those that would be more defensive in nature - aren't we moving to a place where firearms are like any other recreational tool, to be regulated like any other recreational tool?

    The 2nd amendment may go away some day. Just seems like that day will come much quicker once it is determined that owning firearms is simply for recreation. And I think that any steps in that direction are going to be difficult to pass because of that.
    There are no longer hostile bands of pissed-off-that-you're-on-their-land American Indians to defend yourself from, nor invading French and Canadians. I don't think the security of a free state is needed in the hands of gun-owning citizens anymore. Our military can launch a missile from a submarine off the coast of North Carolina that someone in a cubicle in Las Vegas can steer via camera into your living room via an open window. They can put UAV's on you for months on end. Somehow, I don't think that any Wolverines are gonna uphold the Republic with some assault rifles and pluck. Fully 2/3rd's of Selective Service registrants are either too fat, not high-school graduates, or convicts.

    As for the guy who stumbles across an old 20-round magazine, like the law now holds for finding an unregistered Thompson in your attic, it must be reported to the ATF immediately for destruction. The standard would have to be a willful attempt to hide such things.
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  29. #1139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    What I don't understand is why y'all are wanting to give your guns to Hitler without any kind of hesitation... That didn't work out too well for some people the last time that happened but don't let me stop you, Dude.
    Hey man, you are the Hitler ... err ... Trump supporter. Not me.
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  30. #1140
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    It's funny that people think "taking away guns" is how Hitler rose to power. Read a few damn history books, people.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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