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  • #31
    Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    "God's law is not ours to change."

    They should have added a disclaimer about how often God likes to change his mind.
    don't you think that would be overly legalistic?
    Dio perdona tante cose per un’opera di misericordia
    God forgives many things for an act of mercy
    Alessandro Manzoni

    Knock it off. This board has enough problems without a dose of middle-age lechery.

    pelagius

    Comment


    • #32
      PFS article on new website:

      http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/55...s-lds.html.csp
      "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
      "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
      "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

      Comment


      • #33
        The Church’s approach to this issue stands apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright.
        where is d-hole when we need hiim?
        Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Dwight Schr-ute View Post
          This was sort of subtle, but seems to be a big admission for the church. The idea that these issues are strongly biological and not just social will serve the membership well in hopefully enabling them to be more compassionate.
          I think I remember a Hartman Rector, Jr. talk from the 1970s that said flatly "there are no women born inside men's bodies," or something like that. But I don't recall the church officially teaching that homosexuality is always a choice. Am I wrong?
          “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
          ― W.H. Auden


          "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
          -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


          "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
          --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
            I think I remember a Hartman Rector, Jr. talk from the 1970s that said flatly "there are no women born inside men's bodies," or something like that. But I don't recall the church officially teaching that homosexuality is always a choice. Am I wrong?
            "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
            "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
            "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
              I think I remember a Hartman Rector, Jr. talk from the 1970s that said flatly "there are no women born inside men's bodies," or something like that. But I don't recall the church officially teaching that homosexuality is always a choice. Am I wrong?
              Selective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.

              Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).

              Ages ago!
              "It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by FMCoug View Post
                Selective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.

                Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).

                Ages ago!
                He did, but - IIRC - that's the part that was quietly removed from the print version of the talk, so it may be harder to find.
                "What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone

                "What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by FMCoug View Post
                  Selective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.

                  Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).

                  Ages ago!
                  wasn't that the specific part of the talk that was redacted?
                  Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by camleish View Post
                    wasn't that the specific part of the talk that was redacted?
                    A few years prior and there is no way that part would have been redacted. In fact, BKP published a pamphlet (I think it was called "For Young Men Only") where be advocated violence against gays if they try to convert you. My mother gave me a copy as a youth. It was in circulation for many years.

                    A more interesting question would be whether or not there were any statements by church leaders prior to *1990 or so that made an allowance for the possibility that it is not a choice.


                    *1995? 2000? Not sure when the shift started.
                    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by FMCoug View Post
                      Selective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.

                      Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).

                      Ages ago!
                      I didn't hear that talk, nor did I ever read it. My bad, I guess. But I was looking not for a talk by one GA, but for an official position by the church on the matter that has now changed. I don't doubt that there is one, but I just don't know. It may be that the church heirarchy were just as clueless about the nature of gayness as most people have been, over the years.

                      As for my memory, it's only selective about rivalry matters. How has BYU basketball been doing lately? Has it ever recovered from the Tony Ingle fiasco?
                      “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                      ― W.H. Auden


                      "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                      -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                      "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                      --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                        In fact, BKP published a pamphlet (I think it was called "For Young Men Only") where be advocated violence against gays if they try to convert you.
                        I still have a copy that I found among some old boxes of stuff in our ward building. It seems to me he expressed approval of using violence to defend oneself against sexual advances if necessary, which is a little different from trying "to convert" someone. But still....

                        I'll see if I can find it.
                        “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                        ― W.H. Auden


                        "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                        -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                        "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                        --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by camleish View Post
                          wasn't that the specific part of the talk that was redacted?
                          Originally posted by Joe Public View Post
                          He did, but - IIRC - that's the part that was quietly removed from the print version of the talk, so it may be harder to find.
                          Forgot about that.

                          Here's the D-News coverage of the retraction clarification.

                          http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...lk.html?pg=all


                          I didn't watch the whole thing but I can't imagine it has been redacted from this:

                          [YOUTUBE]RNuHzKDUXXM[/YOUTUBE]
                          "It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by LA Ute View Post
                            But I was looking not for a talk by one GA, but for an official position by the church on the matter that has now changed.
                            I know different people give different weight to what an LDS apostle (sustained by LDS church members as a prophet/seer/revelator) says over the pulpit in General Conference. Some would consider it an official position; others would not.

                            If you consider the CHOI an official church position, then you can compare the current version and its discussion of homosexuality with previous versions that said members needed to repent and receive professional counseling (read: aversion therapy) for homosexual thoughts or feelings. That seems to imply choice (i.e., repentance and counseling are ineffective w/r/t an immutable characteristic).
                            "What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone

                            "What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Joe Public View Post
                              I know different people give different weight to what an LDS apostle (sustained by LDS church members as a prophet/seer/revelator) says over the pulpit in General Conference. Some would consider it an official position; others would not.

                              If you consider the CHOI an official church position, then you can compare the current version and its discussion of homosexuality with previous versions that said members needed to repent and receive professional counseling (read: aversion therapy) for homosexual thoughts or feelings. That seems to imply choice (i.e., repentance and counseling are ineffective w/r/t an immutable characteristic).
                              Thanks. That would be a change in position/policy. It's kind of like the change from excommunicating full-time missionaries who transgress, to now simply disfellowshipping them. That's actually a very imperfect analogy, except as an example of a change in approach/policy.

                              Anyway, it's good to know that the church can learn and change. Now, if we can just get them to give up on sports at BYU....
                              Last edited by LA Ute; 12-06-2012, 06:49 PM.
                              “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
                              ― W.H. Auden


                              "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
                              -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


                              "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
                              --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                LAU is right:



                                There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

                                While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.

                                After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, "I hit my companion."

                                "Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.

                                "But I floored him," he said.

                                After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"

                                I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.



                                That gem of a talk alludes to mutual masturbation and straight young men being tempted to try homosexual acts. So there's certainly the allusion to gayness being a choice.

                                By the way, the pamphlet is still available on the church's website. That should tell all of us something.
                                "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
                                "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
                                - SeattleUte

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