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Thread: New LDS Church Website: Mormons and Gays

  1. #61
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone Loc View Post
    There are some men who entice young women to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

    While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said she had something to confess. I was very worried because she just could not get herself to tell me what she had done.

    After patient encouragement she finally blurted out, "I hit my district leader."

    "Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.

    "But I floored him," she said.

    After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"

    I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.
    Why stop there? How about this version:

    There are some women who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

    While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.

    After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, "I hit one of the sisters in my district."

    "Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.

    "But I floored her," he said.

    After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"

    I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  2. #62
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Why stop there? How about this version:
    Maybe the real reason Joseph of Egypt got incarcerated was because he was too vigorous defending his virtue.
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    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    Apparently the church still distributes it... (in electronic form)

    http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared...g.pdf?lang=eng

    I recall getting a copy from my mother and later laughing out loud the part about having wet dreams. Something about your body being a factory and having to release some of its product.
    Great find, Ted. May I remind everyone that this discussion started with LA Ute asking rhetorically if the church had ever claimed that being gay was a choice. I used the above referenced BKP quote as an example. I Just located this quote in the original pamphlet linked by Ted. Here is the text from the very next paragraph:

    There is a falsehood that some are born with an attraction to their own kind, with nothing they can do about it. They are just "that way" and can only yield to those desires. This is a malicious and destructive lie. While it is convincing to some, it is of the devil. No one is locked into that kind of life. From our premortal life were directed into a physical body. There is no mismatching of bodies and spirits. Boys are to become men - masculine, manly men - ultimately to become husbands and fathers. No one is predestined to a perverted use of these powers.
    Q.E.D.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
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  4. #64
    Invisible Swordsman DrumNFeather's Avatar
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    LA, you'd better get out of here, there won't be much fending off this mob for long.




    "They're good. They've always been good" - David Shaw.

    Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Great find, Ted. May I remind everyone that this discussion started with LA Ute asking rhetorically if the church had ever claimed that being gay was a choice. I used the above referenced BKP quote as an example. I Just located this quote in the original pamphlet linked by Ted. Here is the text from the very next paragraph:

    Q.E.D.
    Packer is nothing if not constant. He hasn't changed his views in 30+ years. I guess it's faint praise that the church is sloooowly moving away from his teachings.

  6. #66
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Great find, Ted. May I remind everyone that this discussion started with LA Ute asking rhetorically if the church had ever claimed that being gay was a choice. I used the above referenced BKP quote as an example. I Just located this quote in the original pamphlet linked by Ted. Here is the text from the very next paragraph:

    Q.E.D.
    I don't want to go too far down this rabbit hole, but I was responding to someone (Dwight Schr-Ute, I think) who commented on this from the new website:

    The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters.
    Dwight said:
    This was sort of subtle, but seems to be a big admission for the church. The idea that these issues are strongly biological and not just social will serve the membership well in hopefully enabling them to be more compassionate.
    To be clear, I love it that the church said what it did in the portion Dwight bolded. I really was just wondering if in the past the church had taken a similarly plain, public and official position on the question of choice and gayness. In my mind, individual talks by apostles don't rise to the same level as the website with all the related fanfare.

    Anyway, Dwight said the statement was a "big admission," and it might well be. I was just looking for information about whether or not that is true.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 12-07-2012 at 12:19 PM.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
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    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrumNFeather View Post
    LA, you'd better get out of here, there won't be much fending off this mob for long.




    No angry mob has a claim on LAUte unless I am present, and I'm leaving him be today. Carry on with your torches and pitchforks, but do no bodily harm.
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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    In related news:

    U.S. Supreme Court to rule on California's Prop. 8 ban on gay marriage

    Los Angeles Times | December 7, 2012 | 12:19 PM

    The Supreme Court announced today it will rule for the first time on same-sex marriage by deciding the constitutionality of California's Prop. 8, the voter initiative that limited marriage to a man and a woman.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    No angry mob has a claim on LAUte unless I am present, and I'm leaving him be today. Carry on with your torches and pitchforks, but do no bodily harm.
    I am keeping my asbestos suit on anyway.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/12/07...-sex-marriage/

    Oral arguments in the high court appeal will likely be held in March, with a ruling by late June.
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    a day late/a dollar short Sullyute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    To be clear, I love it that the church said what it did in the portion Dwight bolded. I really was just wondering if in the past the church had taken a similarly plain, public and official position on the question of choice and gayness. In my mind, individual talks by apostles don't rise to the same level as the website with all the related fanfare.
    LA Ute, I just want alittle clarification on what you mean here? If on one church website they promote BKP pamphlet then on another church sponsored site promote something different how do you decide which one rises to the higher level. I am being sincere here and not trying to call you out.
    "Friendship is the grand fundamental principle of Mormonism" - Joseph Smith Jr.

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullyute View Post
    LA Ute, I just want a little clarification on what you mean here? If on one church website they promote BKP pamphlet then on another church sponsored site promote something different how do you decide which one rises to the higher level. I am being sincere here and not trying to call you out.
    Fair question. Here's how I see it:

    1. The church puts up a new website, announces it to the world and calls everyone's attention to it. It's got all kinds of bells and whistles, embedded videos, etc., and just exudes "official-ness." It clearly has the First Presidency's approval.

    2. An individual GA gives a talk, later put into a pamphlet (I heard the talk in general priesthood meeting in about 1973, I think). The pamphlet is still available online, which I concede does suggest at least benign FP approval.

    I think no. 1 deserves more weight than no. 2.

    Now, against my better judgment, I'll try to inject some nuance here. The statement Dwight singled out is that "individuals do not choose to have such attractions." That is not an admission that all gay people are born that way. It's simply an admission that same-sex attraction is not a choice. I think the majority view (and I am no expert, so feel free to correct me) is that the causes of gayness are a continuum -- some are born gay, for some it is experiential, some are just experimenting, etc.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  13. #73
    Heartless Bastard Indy Coug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    1. The church puts up a new website, announces it to the world and calls everyone's attention to it. It's got all kinds of bells and whistles, embedded videos, etc., and just exudes "official-ness." It clearly has the First Presidency's approval.

    2. An individual GA gives a talk, later put into a pamphlet (I heard the talk in general priesthood meeting in about 1973, I think). The pamphlet is still available online, which I concede does suggest at least benign FP approval.
    It's a sign the church is getting away from correlation. Moliere should be uncorking the champagne.
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  14. #74
    a day late/a dollar short Sullyute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Fair question. Here's how I see it:

    1. The church puts up a new website, announces it to the world and calls everyone's attention to it. It's got all kinds of bells and whistles, embedded videos, etc., and just exudes "official-ness." It clearly has the First Presidency's approval.

    2. An individual GA gives a talk, later put into a pamphlet (I heard the talk in general priesthood meeting in about 1973, I think). The pamphlet is still available online, which I concede does suggest at least benign FP approval.

    I think no. 1 deserves more weight than no. 2.
    Thanks for the clarification.
    "Friendship is the grand fundamental principle of Mormonism" - Joseph Smith Jr.

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    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    Packer is nothing if not constant. He hasn't changed his views in 30+ years. I guess it's faint praise that the church is sloooowly moving away from his teachings.
    A thought on BKP. He is the last remaining legacy of JFiS. JFiS called him. Everybody else except LTP is a GBH/TSM apostle (given the infirmity of SWK, ETB and HWH).

    So it shouldn't be all that surprising that he takes exceptionally hard-line stance that are based in the JFiS/BRM view of the Gospel. Couple that with his longetivity and his reputed stubbornness and intensity and you have what you see here: a dinosaur rampaging about trying to stamp out the small fires of heresy he sees.

    There are certain very influential leaders I hold in high esteem - men who I think were products of their time, flawed like anybody else, but forward-thinking enough to leave the church better than they found it on the whole. These would include DOM, SWK and GBH. Let's throw in Wilford Woodruff and, if we're going to expand a bit outside of the President, JReub and Hugh BB.

    There are other leaders that I think have done incalculable damage to the church in their time. I would classify these as BY (depending on viewpoint), JFS, JFiS, BRM, ETB and BKP.

    Of the last category, I actually think one of these men was evil. Wicked. Not righteous. One other I think was a liar (although the tradition of lying for the Lord has much precedent). The others were just hardliners, people who couldn't see past their own opinions. BKP is in this very last group.

    My point here is that BKP is simply continuing a legacy of rigid conservatism that is supported by little else than tradition. An ideological extension of those who called him. And we should not be surprised that many of us, a very liberal group of Mormons by most definitions, disagree with what he has to say and what he said 30 years ago.
    Last edited by Pheidippides; 12-07-2012 at 01:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    There are other leaders that I think have done incalculable damage to the church in their time. I would classify these as BY (depending on viewpoint), JFS, JFiS, BRM, ETB and BKP.

    Of the last category, I actually think one of these men was evil. Wicked. Not righteous. One other I think was a liar (although the tradition of lying for the Lord has much precedent). The others were just hardliners, people who couldn't see past their own opinions. BKP is in this very last group.
    Woah. I almost hesitate to ask, but . . . nah, I'll hold off for now.
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    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    It's a sign the church is getting away from correlation. Moliere should be uncorking the champagne.
    I've uncorked the Martinellis. We aren't far enough along to uncork the champagne yet.
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    Liberal Feminazi Pheidippides's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-American View Post
    Woah. I almost hesitate to ask, but . . . nah, I'll hold off for now.
    The answers are BY and JFiS respectively.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    The answers are BY and JFiS respectively.
    I want to be present in the spirit world when you finally meet up with those two.

    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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    RIP CUF DU Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    The answers are BY and JFiS respectively.
    I was right!
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I want to be present in the spirit world when you finally meet up with those two.

    Based on what I just said, I'm pretty sure we're never going to be in the same place.
    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    Based on what I just said, I'm pretty sure we're never going to be in the same place.
    Maybe at the final judgment?
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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    Quote Originally Posted by nikuman View Post
    Based on what I just said, I'm pretty sure we're never going to be in the same place.
    Which is why it will be all the more awkward when you do meet up. Just imagine the look on your face when you first see him and start wondering where you are . . . .
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    CS Institutional Memory Jarid in Cedar's Avatar
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    I hope that LAU understands that he is not obligated to defend every statement or position of the church. They won't excommunicate him if he doesn't.
    "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
    I hope that LAU understands that he is not obligated to defend every statement or position of the church. They won't excommunicate him if he doesn't.
    I feel like sometimes he and Indy in particular are simply trying to bring some balance to the board. On certain topics, this board is incredibly one sided and that gets really boring, especially if I agree with that side. I, for one, appreciate the effort.

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    Living in the Past ... FMCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smokymountainrain View Post
    I feel like sometimes he and Indy in particular are simply trying to bring some balance to the board. On certain topics, this board is incredibly one sided and that gets really boring, especially if I agree with that side. I, for one, appreciate the effort.
    That's fine and balance is great. But when you have otherwise reasonable people (on either side) spinning like crazy it gets old.
    "It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
    I hope that LAU understands that he is not obligated to defend every statement or position of the church. They won't excommunicate him if he doesn't.
    Come on. You all know you need me here.

    Seriously, this very fine board has a...tendency to become an echo chamber in which certain positions, although eminently debatable, are treated as ironclad truths that any serious person accepts. I can't resist responding to that kind of discourse.

    Quote Originally Posted by FMCoug View Post
    That's fine and balance is great. But when you have otherwise reasonable people (on either side) spinning like crazy it gets old.
    If you catch me spinning, point it out. If I agree that I am spinning (and I promise to be fair) I promise not to eat at Cafe Rio for at least 6 months.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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    CS Institutional Memory Jarid in Cedar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    Come on. You all know you need me here.

    Seriously, this very fine board has a...tendency to become an echo chamber in which certain positions, although eminently debatable, are treated as ironclad truths that any serious person accepts. .
    But isn't this all that the church is (any church for that matter)? Isn't that basically what happens every Sunday? People reverberating the same ideas and thoughts over and over treating them as ironclad truths that any person with an ounce of common sense should understand and believe? Do you offer up the opposing viewpoint in that locale?
    "The first thing I learned upon becoming a head coach after fifteen years as an assistant was the enormous difference between making a suggestion and making a decision."

    "They talk about the economy this year. Hey, my hairline is in recession, my waistline is in inflation. Altogether, I'm in a depression."

    "I like to bike. I could beat Lance Armstrong, only because he couldn't pass me if he was behind me."

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarid in Cedar View Post
    But isn't this all that the church is (any church for that matter)? Isn't that basically what happens every Sunday? People reverberating the same ideas and thoughts over and over treating them as ironclad truths that any person with an ounce of common sense should understand and believe? Do you offer up the opposing viewpoint in that locale?
    A typically fair and sincere question from you, which, as usual, made me think. It seems to me that this board and the Mormon church are apples and oranges. This is a discussion board and exists for debate, whereas our church is, well, a church, and one doesn't go there to debate, at least not in the same way one comes here. Also, the intellectual condescension you describe does not really exist in our church to any significant degree. It is, sadly, present here a bit too often, IMO.

    That said, in church when people do get a little too group-thinky for my tastes, I do try to nudge the conversation towards a broader way of thinking. You'd be surprised.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  30. #90

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    I suppose this was inevitable.

    http://mormonsandnegroes.org/
    Dio perdona tante cose per un’opera di misericordia
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    Alessandro Manzoni

    Knock it off. This board has enough problems without a dose of middle-age lechery.

    pelagius

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