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Thread: New LDS Church Website: Mormons and Gays

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoonerCoug View Post
    "God's law is not ours to change."

    They should have added a disclaimer about how often God likes to change his mind.
    don't you think that would be overly legalistic?
    Dio perdona tante cose per un’opera di misericordia
    God forgives many things for an act of mercy
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  2. #32
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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  3. #33

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    The Church’s approach to this issue stands apart from society in many ways. And that’s alright.
    where is d-hole when we need hiim?
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight Schr-ute View Post
    This was sort of subtle, but seems to be a big admission for the church. The idea that these issues are strongly biological and not just social will serve the membership well in hopefully enabling them to be more compassionate.
    I think I remember a Hartman Rector, Jr. talk from the 1970s that said flatly "there are no women born inside men's bodies," or something like that. But I don't recall the church officially teaching that homosexuality is always a choice. Am I wrong?
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
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    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
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  5. #35
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think I remember a Hartman Rector, Jr. talk from the 1970s that said flatly "there are no women born inside men's bodies," or something like that. But I don't recall the church officially teaching that homosexuality is always a choice. Am I wrong?
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  6. #36
    Living in the Past ... FMCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I think I remember a Hartman Rector, Jr. talk from the 1970s that said flatly "there are no women born inside men's bodies," or something like that. But I don't recall the church officially teaching that homosexuality is always a choice. Am I wrong?
    Selective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.

    Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).

    Ages ago!
    "It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCoug View Post
    Selective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.

    Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).

    Ages ago!
    He did, but - IIRC - that's the part that was quietly removed from the print version of the talk, so it may be harder to find.
    "What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone

    "What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCoug View Post
    Selective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.

    Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).

    Ages ago!
    wasn't that the specific part of the talk that was redacted?
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  9. #39
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camleish View Post
    wasn't that the specific part of the talk that was redacted?
    A few years prior and there is no way that part would have been redacted. In fact, BKP published a pamphlet (I think it was called "For Young Men Only") where be advocated violence against gays if they try to convert you. My mother gave me a copy as a youth. It was in circulation for many years.

    A more interesting question would be whether or not there were any statements by church leaders prior to *1990 or so that made an allowance for the possibility that it is not a choice.


    *1995? 2000? Not sure when the shift started.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  10. #40
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCoug View Post
    Selective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.

    Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).

    Ages ago!
    I didn't hear that talk, nor did I ever read it. My bad, I guess. But I was looking not for a talk by one GA, but for an official position by the church on the matter that has now changed. I don't doubt that there is one, but I just don't know. It may be that the church heirarchy were just as clueless about the nature of gayness as most people have been, over the years.

    As for my memory, it's only selective about rivalry matters. How has BYU basketball been doing lately? Has it ever recovered from the Tony Ingle fiasco?
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  11. #41
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    In fact, BKP published a pamphlet (I think it was called "For Young Men Only") where be advocated violence against gays if they try to convert you.
    I still have a copy that I found among some old boxes of stuff in our ward building. It seems to me he expressed approval of using violence to defend oneself against sexual advances if necessary, which is a little different from trying "to convert" someone. But still....

    I'll see if I can find it.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  12. #42
    Living in the Past ... FMCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camleish View Post
    wasn't that the specific part of the talk that was redacted?
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Public View Post
    He did, but - IIRC - that's the part that was quietly removed from the print version of the talk, so it may be harder to find.
    Forgot about that.

    Here's the D-News coverage of the retraction clarification.

    http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...lk.html?pg=all


    I didn't watch the whole thing but I can't imagine it has been redacted from this:

    [YOUTUBE]RNuHzKDUXXM[/YOUTUBE]
    "It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    But I was looking not for a talk by one GA, but for an official position by the church on the matter that has now changed.
    I know different people give different weight to what an LDS apostle (sustained by LDS church members as a prophet/seer/revelator) says over the pulpit in General Conference. Some would consider it an official position; others would not.

    If you consider the CHOI an official church position, then you can compare the current version and its discussion of homosexuality with previous versions that said members needed to repent and receive professional counseling (read: aversion therapy) for homosexual thoughts or feelings. That seems to imply choice (i.e., repentance and counseling are ineffective w/r/t an immutable characteristic).
    "What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone

    "What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky

  14. #44
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Public View Post
    I know different people give different weight to what an LDS apostle (sustained by LDS church members as a prophet/seer/revelator) says over the pulpit in General Conference. Some would consider it an official position; others would not.

    If you consider the CHOI an official church position, then you can compare the current version and its discussion of homosexuality with previous versions that said members needed to repent and receive professional counseling (read: aversion therapy) for homosexual thoughts or feelings. That seems to imply choice (i.e., repentance and counseling are ineffective w/r/t an immutable characteristic).
    Thanks. That would be a change in position/policy. It's kind of like the change from excommunicating full-time missionaries who transgress, to now simply disfellowshipping them. That's actually a very imperfect analogy, except as an example of a change in approach/policy.

    Anyway, it's good to know that the church can learn and change. Now, if we can just get them to give up on sports at BYU....
    Last edited by LA Ute; 12-06-2012 at 06:49 PM.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  15. #45

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    LAU is right:



    There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

    While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.

    After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, "I hit my companion."

    "Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.

    "But I floored him," he said.

    After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"

    I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.



    That gem of a talk alludes to mutual masturbation and straight young men being tempted to try homosexual acts. So there's certainly the allusion to gayness being a choice.

    By the way, the pamphlet is still available on the church's website. That should tell all of us something.

  16. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    LAU is right:



    There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

    While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.

    After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, "I hit my companion."

    "Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.

    "But I floored him," he said.

    After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"

    I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.



    That gem of a talk alludes to mutual masturbation and straight young men being tempted to try homosexual acts. So there's certainly the allusion to gayness being a choice.

    By the way, the pamphlet is still available on the church's website. That should tell all of us something.
    and that's what happens when someone spends their whole life in ces/working for the church and has no idea what the real world is like.
    Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

  17. #47
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I still have a copy that I found among some old boxes of stuff in our ward building. It seems to me he expressed approval of using violence to defend oneself against sexual advances if necessary, which is a little different from trying "to convert" someone. But still....

    I'll see if I can find it.
    A distinction without much of a difference.

    Short of attempted rape (which I think would be extraordinarily rare between two missionaries), do you think it is appropriate to respond to a sexual advance with violence? Seriously? That missionary experienced guilt for good reason. And there is something extremely disconcerting about an apostle implying that he would have liked to have gotten in a few punches himself had he been given the chance.

    It seems that the implicit message here is that those queers are trying to recruit the rest of us to their perverted state so we need to do everything we can to stop them. I don't recall seeing this response suggested for the heterosexual scenario.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  18. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    I didn't hear that talk, nor did I ever read it. My bad, I guess. But I was looking not for a talk by one GA, but for an official position by the church on the matter that has now changed. I don't doubt that there is one, but I just don't know. It may be that the church heirarchy were just as clueless about the nature of gayness as most people have been, over the years.
    LA Ute, you're a good man, and I like you, but responses like this and the one that preceded it . . .
    Dio perdona tante cose per un’opera di misericordia
    God forgives many things for an act of mercy
    Alessandro Manzoni

    Knock it off. This board has enough problems without a dose of middle-age lechery.

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  19. #49
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pellegrino View Post
    LA Ute, you're a good man, and I like you, but responses like this and the one that preceded it . . .
    I feel the same way about you and just about everyone here. But you must admit that there is a prevailing point of view here on CUF and little tolerance for anyone who tries to play devil's advocate. (Angel's advocate?) I think many here become so comfortable with the echo chamber that they can't imagine how any intelligent person can see an issue differently and perhaps have something valid to say. Will you guys own that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    A distinction without much of a difference.

    Short of attempted rape (which I think would be extraordinarily rare between two missionaries), do you think it is appropriate to respond to a sexual advance with violence? Seriously? That missionary experienced guilt for good reason. And there is something extremely disconcerting about an apostle implying that he would have liked to have gotten in a few punches himself had he been given the chance.

    It seems that the implicit message here is that those queers are trying to recruit the rest of us to their perverted state so we need to do everything we can to stop them. I don't recall seeing this response suggested for the heterosexual scenario.
    You said BKP "advocated violence against gays if they try to convert you." That's not a fair characterization of what he said. I'm no fan of many of BKP's statements but it's important to be intellectually honest in describing them.
    Last edited by LA Ute; 12-07-2012 at 07:23 AM.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  20. #50
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LA Ute View Post
    You said BKP "advocated violence against gays if they try to convert you." That's not a fair characterization of what he said. I'm no fan of many of BKP's statements but it's important to be intellectually honest in describing them.
    How is it not fair? Go back and read the first line of the quote:

    There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.
    He is very clearly saying that gays recruit people to join them in gay sex and when they try to recruit you, you should beat the shit out of them.

    On the other hand, maybe he only meant to be speaking to closeted gay mormons and was actually advocating gay-on-gay violence.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  21. #51
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    How is it not fair? Go back and read the first line of the quote:



    He is very clearly saying that gays recruit people to join them in gay sex and when they try to recruit you, you should beat the shit out of them.

    On the other hand, maybe he only meant to be speaking to closeted gay mormons and was actually advocating gay-on-gay violence.
    I think there is a BKP obsession on this board.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
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  22. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    He is very clearly saying that gays recruit people to join them in gay sex and when they try to recruit you, you should beat the shit out of them.

    On the other hand, maybe he only meant to be speaking to closeted gay mormons and was actually advocating gay-on-gay violence.
    You get that out of "vigorously resist"? Bullshit. Stop straining so hard.
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  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indy Coug View Post
    You get that out of "vigorously resist"? Bullshit. Stop straining so hard.
    You obviously didn't read the full quote.

    http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...0&postcount=45
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
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  24. #54

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    There are some men who entice young women to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

    While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said she had something to confess. I was very worried because she just could not get herself to tell me what she had done.

    After patient encouragement she finally blurted out, "I hit my district leader."

    "Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.

    "But I floored him," she said.

    After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"

    I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone Loc View Post
    There are some men who entice young women to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

    While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said she had something to confess. I was very worried because she just could not get herself to tell me what she had done.

    After patient encouragement she finally blurted out, "I hit my district leader."

    "Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.

    "But I floored him," she said.

    After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"

    I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.
    Sounds like advice that I would give my daughter.
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    I appreciate the efforts of the LDS church in creating the website you mentioned. Many of my Gay friends are a little offended by the site, but i'm not bothered in the least by it. After all...I view it, in part, as an effort to assure members that those of us that are Gay deserve love and respect.

    My family has not reacted well to my coming out, but I try to give them a pass on that since it clearly is not an easy thing to accept. most of them will have absolutely nothing to do with me, but a few are starting to come around a little. I applaud the LDS church for their efforts, and Hope it will help the healing process to continue in my family.

    While I have chosen to resign my membership, I still respect the church and have no desire to tear it down or criticize the decisions made by the leaders too much. i'm very grateful that the church has made positive adjustments in their approach with the Gay issue.

    There is one thing I wish beyond anything they would do, but i'm not holding my breath for it to happen. Its not for me, but doing this one thing might really help my ex wife, and the many other Ex wives in the church. Hopefully one day they will see the need, but i'm happy they are making an effort.
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  27. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sullyute View Post
    Sounds like advice that I would give my daughter.
    It's advice you give in cases of rape. Most girls that participate in lascivious acts are willing participants. Same goes for cases of gay.

  28. #58
    Receiver of Memory LA Ute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone Loc View Post
    There are some men who entice young women to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.

    While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said she had something to confess. I was very worried because she just could not get herself to tell me what she had done.

    After patient encouragement she finally blurted out, "I hit my district leader."

    "Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.

    "But I floored him," she said.

    After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"

    I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.
    That sounds like advocating violence against heterosexual men who try to "convert" women.
    “There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
    ― W.H. Auden


    "God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
    -- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons


    "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
    --Antoine de Saint-Exupery

  29. #59
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    Being together 24/7, eating together, shopping together, sharing details of your lives together, sharing your darkest fears and your greatest aspirations, sleeping together wearing exotic underwear ..... SOMETHING'S GOTTA GIVE!
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  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    A few years prior and there is no way that part would have been redacted. In fact, BKP published a pamphlet (I think it was called "For Young Men Only") where be advocated violence against gays if they try to convert you. My mother gave me a copy as a youth. It was in circulation for many years.
    Apparently the church still distributes it... (in electronic form)

    http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared...g.pdf?lang=eng

    I recall getting a copy from my mother and later laughing out loud the part about having wet dreams. Something about your body being a factory and having to release some of its product.
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