Originally posted by SoonerCoug
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New LDS Church Website: Mormons and Gays
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"There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Dwight Schr-ute View PostThis was sort of subtle, but seems to be a big admission for the church. The idea that these issues are strongly biological and not just social will serve the membership well in hopefully enabling them to be more compassionate.“There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
― W.H. Auden
"God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
-- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Originally posted by LA Ute View PostI think I remember a Hartman Rector, Jr. talk from the 1970s that said flatly "there are no women born inside men's bodies," or something like that. But I don't recall the church officially teaching that homosexuality is always a choice. Am I wrong?"There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by LA Ute View PostI think I remember a Hartman Rector, Jr. talk from the 1970s that said flatly "there are no women born inside men's bodies," or something like that. But I don't recall the church officially teaching that homosexuality is always a choice. Am I wrong?
Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).
Ages ago!"It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."
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Originally posted by FMCoug View PostSelective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.
Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).
Ages ago!"What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone
"What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky
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Originally posted by FMCoug View PostSelective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.
Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).
Ages ago!Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.
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Originally posted by camleish View Postwasn't that the specific part of the talk that was redacted?
A more interesting question would be whether or not there were any statements by church leaders prior to *1990 or so that made an allowance for the possibility that it is not a choice.
*1995? 2000? Not sure when the shift started."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
Comment
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Originally posted by FMCoug View PostSelective memory can be a wonderful thing for the apologist I guess.
Check out BKP in conference October 2010. I believe he said that God would never do that to a person (make them born gay).
Ages ago!
As for my memory, it's only selective about rivalry matters. How has BYU basketball been doing lately? Has it ever recovered from the Tony Ingle fiasco?“There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
― W.H. Auden
"God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
-- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostIn fact, BKP published a pamphlet (I think it was called "For Young Men Only") where be advocated violence against gays if they try to convert you.
I'll see if I can find it.“There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
― W.H. Auden
"God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
-- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Comment
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Originally posted by camleish View Postwasn't that the specific part of the talk that was redacted?Originally posted by Joe Public View PostHe did, but - IIRC - that's the part that was quietly removed from the print version of the talk, so it may be harder to find.
Here's the D-News coverage of theretractionclarification.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...lk.html?pg=all
I didn't watch the whole thing but I can't imagine it has been redacted from this:
[YOUTUBE]RNuHzKDUXXM[/YOUTUBE]"It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."
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Originally posted by LA Ute View PostBut I was looking not for a talk by one GA, but for an official position by the church on the matter that has now changed.
If you consider the CHOI an official church position, then you can compare the current version and its discussion of homosexuality with previous versions that said members needed to repent and receive professional counseling (read: aversion therapy) for homosexual thoughts or feelings. That seems to imply choice (i.e., repentance and counseling are ineffective w/r/t an immutable characteristic)."What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone
"What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky
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Originally posted by Joe Public View PostI know different people give different weight to what an LDS apostle (sustained by LDS church members as a prophet/seer/revelator) says over the pulpit in General Conference. Some would consider it an official position; others would not.
If you consider the CHOI an official church position, then you can compare the current version and its discussion of homosexuality with previous versions that said members needed to repent and receive professional counseling (read: aversion therapy) for homosexual thoughts or feelings. That seems to imply choice (i.e., repentance and counseling are ineffective w/r/t an immutable characteristic).
Anyway, it's good to know that the church can learn and change. Now, if we can just get them to give up on sports at BYU....Last edited by LA Ute; 12-06-2012, 06:49 PM.“There is a great deal of difference in believing something still, and believing it again.”
― W.H. Auden
"God made the angels to show His splendour - as He made animals for innocence and plants for their simplicity. But men and women He made to serve Him wittily, in the tangle of their minds."
-- Robert Bolt, A Man for All Seasons
"It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye."
--Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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LAU is right:
There are some men who entice young men to join them in these immoral acts. If you are ever approached to participate in anything like that, it is time to vigorously resist.
While I was in a mission on one occasion, a missionary said he had something to confess. I was very worried because he just could not get himself to tell me what he had done.
After patient encouragement he finally blurted out, "I hit my companion."
"Oh, is that all," I said in great relief.
"But I floored him," he said.
After learning a little more, my response was "Well, thanks. Somebody had to do it, and it wouldn't be well for a General Authority to solve the problem that way"
I am not recommending that course to you, but I am not omitting it. You must protect yourself.
That gem of a talk alludes to mutual masturbation and straight young men being tempted to try homosexual acts. So there's certainly the allusion to gayness being a choice.
By the way, the pamphlet is still available on the church's website. That should tell all of us something."...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
"You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
- SeattleUte
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