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The Electoral College Sucks

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  • #76
    Originally posted by BlueK View Post
    Those are good points. But ironically in your in-laws' case, under the current system their vote for President isn't counted. So their voice is shut out on both the state and federal levels.
    The alternative is a nation wide popular vote. I’d venture to say that a majority would be needed for election, which is something Clinton didn’t even have. Al Gore didn’t have it in 2000. Would you prefer a runoff between the top two candidates if a majority isn’t obtained or something like England where a weird coalition thing is used?
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

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    • #77
      Originally posted by wapiti View Post
      I don't understand the "my vote doesn't count" complaint. Unless the election is decided by a single vote, no single vote actually matters. So whether the vote goes to a national count or is filtered by the state is irrelevant IMO.
      Exactly. Keep the electoral college.
      "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
      "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
      "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
        Exactly. Keep the electoral college.
        I disagree. One person one vote. Get rid of the electoral college.
        "Friendship is the grand fundamental principle of Mormonism" - Joseph Smith Jr.

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Sullyute View Post
          I disagree. One person one vote. Get rid of the electoral college.
          Each person has one vote using the electoral college, too.
          PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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          • #80
            Originally posted by wapiti View Post
            I don't understand the "my vote doesn't count" complaint. Unless the election is decided by a single vote, no single vote actually matters. So whether the vote goes to a national count or is filtered by the state is irrelevant IMO.
            this is also the reason why a rational person should probably not vote
            Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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            • #81
              The Electoral College Sucks

              Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
              this is also the reason why a rational person should probably not vote
              Indeed, the 2016 election provides a great deal of evidence that they don’t.
              τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

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              • #82
                Originally posted by old_gregg View Post
                this is also the reason why a rational person should probably not vote
                Not exactly (I know we've discussed this before): a rational person (and by rational ... rational they way it gets defined in economics) and their preferences are such that they get no/little enjoyment (utility in econ speak) from things other than their impact on the outcome. Voting because you get a kick out of filling out your ballot on a touch screen voting machine is a perfect rational reason to vote (at least they way it's defined in economics).
                Last edited by pelagius; 12-05-2018, 05:13 PM.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by pelagius View Post
                  Not exactly (I know we've discussed this before): a rational person (and by rational ... rational they way it gets defined in economics) and their preferences are such that they get no/little enjoyment (utility in econ speak) from things other than their impact on the outcome. Voting because you get a kick out of filling out your ballot on a touch screen voting machine is a perfect rational reason to vote (at least they way it's defined in economics).
                  Sheesh. Do they not have sports fans in economics? There’s a much simpler explanation: when you vote you are part of the team. Same reason you pay 50 bucks to sit in nosebleeds.
                  τὸν ἥλιον ἀνατέλλοντα πλείονες ἢ δυόμενον προσκυνοῦσιν

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by All-American View Post
                    Sheesh. Do they not have sports fans in economics? There’s a much simpler explanation: when you vote you are part of the team. Same reason you pay 50 bucks to sit in nosebleeds.
                    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by All-American View Post
                      Sheesh. Do they not have sports fans in economics? There’s a much simpler explanation: when you vote you are part of the team. Same reason you pay 50 bucks to sit in nosebleeds.
                      I'm sure that's a simpler explanation to something.

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by wapiti View Post
                        Kasich as an independent would just hand the election to the Dem nominee. If Kasich managed some EC votes they would come in solid red states like Utah. Swing states would swing blue with Trump and Kasich splitting the conservative vote. The election wouldn't be close.
                        I'm not sure about that. Trump is not in any way a normal Republican or "conservative" figure. He is so polarizing that I think an independent getting a decent chunk of votes nationally might actually be taking more votes from the dem side from moderates or independents who have already decided not to vote for Trump no matter what. Think of someone here like Moliere or any number of others on here who don't necessarily like the democrats and who would otherwise vote for a traditional republican, but who have stated they can't vote for Trump.

                        Thinking specifically about the EC, Trump couldn't have won last time without swing states WI, PA and MI. Those states were extremely close in 2016 but are currently leaning toward the dems based on the last election and current polling. Trump could very easily lose them in the next election. However, some moderates and independents who are leaning to the dems right now if they found a more natural vote in Kasich would then take enough votes from the dem to help Trump win those states again. I don't think the standard assumptions (like independent candidates always help the dem candidate) work with Trump.
                        Last edited by BlueK; 12-06-2018, 10:06 AM.

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by BlueK View Post
                          I'm not sure about that. Trump is not in any way a normal Republican or "conservative" figure. He is so polarizing that I think an independent getting a decent chunk of votes nationally might actually be taking more votes from the dem side from moderates or independents who have already decided not to vote for Trump no matter what. Think of someone here like Moliere or any number of others on here who don't necessarily like the democrats and who would otherwise vote for a traditional republican, but who have stated they can't vote for Trump.

                          Thinking specifically about the EC, Trump couldn't have won last time without swing states WI, PA and MI. Those states were extremely close in 2016 but are currently leaning toward the dems based on the last election and current polling. Trump could very easily lose them in the next election. However, some moderates and independents who are leaning to the dems right now if they found a more natural vote in Kasich would then take enough votes from the dem to help Trump win those states again. I don't think the standard assumptions (like independent candidates always help the dem candidate) work with Trump.

                          I differ politically from Kasich but I really like him and have been on record that I would have preferred him over Hillary, but I hope he doesn’t run. It would reckless to enable a Trump victory.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by BlueK View Post
                            I'm not sure about that. Trump is not in any way a normal Republican or "conservative" figure. He is so polarizing that I think an independent getting a decent chunk of votes nationally might actually be taking more votes from the dem side from moderates or independents who have already decided not to vote for Trump no matter what. Think of someone here like Moliere or any number of others on here who don't necessarily like the democrats and who would otherwise vote for a traditional republican, but who have stated they can't vote for Trump.

                            Thinking specifically about the EC, Trump couldn't have won last time without swing states WI, PA and MI. Those states were extremely close in 2016 but are currently leaning toward the dems based on the last election and current polling. Trump could very easily lose them in the next election. However, some moderates and independents who are leaning to the dems right now if they found a more natural vote in Kasich would then take enough votes from the dem to help Trump win those states again. I don't think the standard assumptions (like independent candidates always help the dem candidate) work with Trump.
                            Is it a standard assumption that indpendent candidates help the dems? Doesn't it depend on which way the independent candidate leans?

                            In reality, which side Kasich affect depends heavily on who the dems nominate. If they nominate Joe Biden, he probably hurts Trump. If they nominate Warren, he probably hurts her.

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                            • #89
                              https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ar-vote-555148

                              Trump favors getting rid of the electoral college. Does that make anyone second guess their support of its removal?

                              Been thinking about this issue again today, and I still think I like the electoral college, but with each state assigning their delegates proportionately to the popular vote of that state. I think that would make for a nice level of chaos.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by BigPiney View Post
                                https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...ar-vote-555148

                                Trump favors getting rid of the electoral college. Does that make anyone second guess their support of its removal?

                                Been thinking about this issue again today, and I still think I like the electoral college, but with each state assigning their delegates proportionately to the popular vote of that state. I think that would make for a nice level of chaos.
                                It would significantly alter the dynamics of presidential elections away from the current swing state model.
                                "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
                                - Goatnapper'96

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