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  • Originally posted by Hsaru View Post
    Pocket passers with great fundamentals/skills will airmail passes all the time if they don't feel comfortable in the offense. Listen to Tom Brady or Peyton Manning talk about offense, they mention being comfortable in the offense as the top or one of the top factors every single time.

    Jake had some real issues with his fundamentals on dump offs at times and changing the trajectory on some passes in the middle. But overall his fundamentals were very good, his main issue was comfort in the offense.


    Originally posted by Hsaru View Post
    But I'm done with Heaps discussion. All I care about is Taysom Hill the rest of this year.
    I knew this was too good to be true.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

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    • Originally posted by USU Coug View Post


      I want to hear more about the newest savior, Taysom. Enough about the old savior.
      He had 114 of our 200 total yards against BSU!
      So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
        So you mean to tell me that despite recruiting evaluators, Bronco, Doman, Weis, and guys like HL and Junkie, raving about his fundamentals, not only were they not good, they were actually poor? I guess I'm incredulous.

        I'm not a QB coach, but I don't see throwing a football as all that different from throwing a baseball, and it's entirely possible to have good throwing fundamentals and struggle with accuracy, and vice versa. For a pitcher fundamentals start on the back leg, run all the way to the non-throwing arm and head, end at the release point. It's entirely possible to be fundamentally sound all the way through the process, but then lack timing on the release. But that doesn't make poor fundamentals, it just makes struggles with release point. You can have good fundamentals all the way through the chain and still throw it all the way over the catcher's head or bounce it halfway, just as you can have poor, uncontrolled fundamentals all the way through and still pound the zone (like Dontrelle Willis early in his career).
        I too raved about Jake's fundamentals. They started to go downhill as he struggled. You pitcher explanation is too simplistic. A QB's mechanics change depending on the type of throw. Think of the differences between how a pitcher throws and how a catcher throws to a stealing runner.

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        • Originally posted by Shaka View Post
          I too raved about Jake's fundamentals. They started to go downhill as he struggled. You pitcher explanation is too simplistic. A QB's mechanics change depending on the type of throw. Think of the differences between how a pitcher throws and how a catcher throws to a stealing runner.
          Then maybe that what's I don't understand about QB'ing compared to throwing a baseball. The difference between how a pitcher and catcher throw has no relevance in baseball, because a pitcher shouldn't be changing his mechanics/fundamentals based on type of pitch. Any type of change based on the pitch being made would be evidence of a flaw in the fundamentals. Pitchers will change arm slots, but that's not necessarily a mechanical change. The mechanics will remain the same with the arm simply switching angles. But I do see what you mean because a pitcher is always executing the same motion from the same place with the same purpose, where a QB almost never throws from the same position twice. There's a lot more sort of improv that goes into getting a football throw off than a pitcher making a pitch.

          But again I don't see throwing a football as being all that dissimilar from throwing a baseball in terms of the moving parts that go into it, starting on the ball of the back foot and moving through the release. And if everything else is sound, I wouldn't see a problem at release as changing otherwise good fundamentals all the way down to poor.

          Also, I would assume that fundamentals in throwing a football, much like throwing a baseball, would manifest themselves on ways other than just accuracy. For example, I assume that fundamentals in throwing a football, apart from accuracy which we've already discussed, would contribute to all of the following: tightness of the spiral, how quick the QB gets rids of it once he starts his throwing motion, how fast it leaves his hand once he gets to the release point, general velocity/zip, etc.

          When I see Riley throw the ball I see the following: a ball that comes out of his hand slow, a ball that is wobbly and travels with what seems to be little purpose, a long/awkward throwing motion, etc. I mean Riley throws one of the ugliest balls I can remember seeing from a BYU QB in recent memory. Would these also not be evidence of poor fundamentals to some degree?
          So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
            Then maybe that what's I don't understand about QB'ing compared to throwing a baseball. The difference between how a pitcher and catcher throw has no relevance in baseball, because a pitcher shouldn't be changing his mechanics/fundamentals based on type of pitch. Any type of change based on the pitch being made would be evidence of a flaw in the fundamentals. Pitchers will change arm slots, but that's not necessarily a mechanical change. The mechanics will remain the same with the arm simply switching angles. But I do see what you mean because a pitcher is always executing the same motion from the same place with the same purpose, where a QB almost never throws from the same position twice. There's a lot more sort of improv that goes into getting a football throw off than a pitcher making a pitch.

            But again I don't see throwing a football as being all that dissimilar from throwing a baseball in terms of the moving parts that go into it, starting on the ball of the back foot and moving through the release. And if everything else is sound, I wouldn't see a problem at release as changing otherwise good fundamentals all the way down to poor.

            Also, I would assume that fundamentals in throwing a football, much like throwing a baseball, would manifest themselves on ways other than just accuracy. For example, I assume that fundamentals in throwing a football, apart from accuracy which we've already discussed, would contribute to all of the following: tightness of the spiral, how quick the QB gets rids of it once he starts his throwing motion, how fast it leaves his hand once he gets to the release point, general velocity/zip, etc.

            When I see Riley throw the ball I see the following: a ball that comes out of his hand slow, a ball that is wobbly and travels with what seems to be little purpose, a long/awkward throwing motion, etc. I mean Riley throws one of the ugliest balls I can remember seeing from a BYU QB in recent memory. Would these also not be evidence of poor fundamentals to some degree?
            I thought we were discussing Jake?

            Different QB's release the ball differently depending on a number of factors. Look at the different throwing motions of Ty Detmer and John Beck. Ty could get the ball down field even though he threw from his ear much like a catcher throws to second base. Many other QB's use this type of throw for short yardage and situations where a quick release is needed. Riley throws this way too although he's not nearly as good at it as Ty. I disagree that Riley's ball always comes out low velocity and wobbly. He has zinged in many throws. His 47 yarder was not a balloon ball. Unfortunately Riley has struggled with consistency and like you pointed out, throws some that do come out slow and ducklike.

            Jake's has more of a pitcher style mechanic which is similar to something you'd see from Beck when he throws longer medium and deep throws. This is definitely the second mechanic I'd teach a young QB. (The first being to throw from the ear like Ty) The only flaw is that oftentimes QB's that do not learn other deliveries that are better suited for touch passes and balls that needed to be released quickly. Beck had a variety of mechanics in his quiver but Jake was struggling to develop more variety. This is why you'd see him miss on things like quick outs which do not require a fully cocked gun. In other words Jake needed to incorporate a little more of Ty's type of delivery into his own quiver. This is what I mean when I state that he was struggling mechanically.

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            • Why are we comparing baseball to football? Matt Cain doesn't have to change from a slider to a change while on the run, with the on-deck batter charging at him. Riley isn't bad because of his mechanics, he's bad because he makes bad decisions. Same with Jake.
              "The mind is not a boomerang. If you throw it too far it will not come back." ~ Tom McGuane

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              • Originally posted by Non Sequitur View Post
                Why are we comparing baseball to football? Matt Cain doesn't have to change from a slider to a change while on the run, with the on-deck batter charging at him. Riley isn't bad because of his mechanics, he's bad because he makes bad decisions. Same with Jake.
                Because baseball is what I kind relate to? Other than that, I agree that Riley is bad.
                So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Shaka View Post
                  I thought we were discussing Jake?
                  Oh, we were. I was simply saying that poor fundamentals can manifest themselves in a variety ways other than accuracy, and Riley was the example I came up with. It seems like if you didn't like Jake because of his poor fundamentals, you should have at least disliked Riley for the same reason. Despite the fact that Riley seemed to do a better job with his accuracy than Jake*, he also displayed poor fundamentals that were going to hamper his play against anything other than WAC competition (as you seem to indicate below ie, slow, ducks, consistency, etc.).

                  Different QB's release the ball differently depending on a number of factors. Look at the different throwing motions of Ty Detmer and John Beck. Ty could get the ball down field even though he threw from his ear much like a catcher throws to second base. Many other QB's use this type of throw for short yardage and situations where a quick release is needed. Riley throws this way too although he's not nearly as good at it as Ty. I disagree that Riley's ball always comes out low velocity and wobbly. He has zinged in many throws. His 47 yarder was not a balloon ball. Unfortunately Riley has struggled with consistency and like you pointed out, throws some that do come out slow and ducklike.
                  Hey, I didn't say always. There are definitely those instances where he can get his six wind up steps in and the throw is right in front of him.

                  Jake's has more of a pitcher style mechanic which is similar to something you'd see from Beck when he throws longer medium and deep throws. This is definitely the second mechanic I'd teach a young QB. (The first being to throw from the ear like Ty) The only flaw is that oftentimes QB's that do not learn other deliveries that are better suited for touch passes and balls that needed to be released quickly. Beck had a variety of mechanics in his quiver but Jake was struggling to develop more variety. This is why you'd see him miss on things like quick outs which do not require a fully cocked gun. In other words Jake needed to incorporate a little more of Ty's type of delivery into his own quiver. This is what I mean when I state that he was struggling mechanically.
                  That make sense, and I see what you mean with Beck. Seems pretty reconcilable, though, as the Beck you are referring to with the variety of deliveries didn't really manifest himself until last in his junior year. I don't know, maybe something like a quarterback coach would have helped? (For both guys)

                  *I say accuracy in terms of completion percentage, but as the "competition" argument continues to play itself out, I'm not sure how accurate it really is. When Jake was reinserted against the WAC, he completed something like 67% of his last 66 throws. On the other hand, Riley against anything other than the WAC has been just as bad with his accuracy as Jake. Against TCU/Tulsa/Utah/Boise, Riley has completed a meagerly 43% of his passes and racked up a whopping 12 turnovers, while similarly displaying an uncanny ability to not even get the ball in the same zip code as his receiver.
                  So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

                  Comment


                  • http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsby...e-byu.html.csp

                    "I am confident in my ability, like I said, to run the offense..."
                    "The first day I got here, I was in the playbook, and learning those things, so I would be ready for spring ball and fall camp, to be able to compete and to have the opportunity to do what I am doing now."
                    "Either evolution or intelligent design can account for the athlete, but neither can account for the sports fan." - Robert Brault

                    "Once I seen the trades go down and the other guys signed elsewhere," he said, "I knew it was my time now." - Derrick Favors

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                    • Are those wheels coming off or getting put back on?
                      Last edited by USUC; 09-25-2012, 05:32 PM.

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                      • "The reason that Taysom is getting the majority of the snaps is it allows us to train, because he and Riley are similar in style, so it allows us to keep the game plan alive for Riley. And if he cant, its not that big of jump to get to Taysom. By style, thats how its working."
                        "When there is a day that poor, its multi-faceted. Protection is certainly is an issue, receivers not getting open is certainly an issue and then maybe a quarterback being off that day. So anytime you end up with a number that is maybe the lowest in seven or eight years it cant just be one thing its usually multiple things."
                        This team's Broner (I'm trying to start a new term!) player eclipses every other year.
                        So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

                        Comment


                        • Holy shit can this kid move. Running away from the secondary with ease. Wow.
                          So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

                          Comment


                          • I really hope Doman gets away from calling the QB draw with Hill. He will make plays with his feet regardless. I'm curious what others thought of his arm strength. He undrethrew a few people tonight. I hope that had more to do with his technique and not his strength. This kid is special though. Hill and Williams are going to tear it up on the ground.

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                            • He underthrew some deep balls but looked to me that he was holding back on them more than anything. I think he had more arm to give them but was just afraid to just let it go.
                              So Russell...what do you love about music? To begin with, everything.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by MarkGrace View Post
                                He underthrew some deep balls but looked to me that he was holding back on them more than anything. I think he had more arm to give them but was just afraid to just let it go.
                                I agree. Looked like his was trying for some touch and just didn't give it enough.
                                Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

                                "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

                                GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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