Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 125

Thread: Sacrament Dilemma

  1. #1
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,041

    Default Sacrament Dilemma

    So, let's say that you're about to take the water and your three-year-old reaches up to take a cup with the tray right in front of her face and, without warning, lets loose a misty sneeze that wafts over all the remaining cups. Assume that you're in the back and it looks like no one saw. Do you cause a scene by not passing the tray to your neighbor, say nothing, quietly explain what happened to a deacon who is mortified that someone is speaking to him, or something else?
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  2. #2

    Default

    This is a dilemma?

  3. #3
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,041

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    This is a dilemma?
    I know what I would do, I'm gauging the board's response.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  4. #4
    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Orange County, CA
    Posts
    58,326

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    I know what I would do, I'm gauging the board's response.
    That is disgusting. Why would it matter whether anyone saw?
    Fitter. Happier. More Productive.


  5. #5

    Default

    Since the water is holy and has been blessed, it will be miraculously safe for consumption in spite of the cesspool of germs sneezed into the cups by the rodent.
    A Mormon president could make a perfectly patriotic, competent, inspiring leader. But not Mitt Romney. He is a husked void. --David Javerbaum

  6. #6
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,041

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    That is disgusting. Why would it matter whether anyone saw?
    Well, let's say that you thought no one saw, and for whatever reason, you didn't want to deal with the hassle of letting others know, you could just pass the tray as I watched someone do this morning.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  7. #7
    Senior Member Katy Lied's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Center of the Salt Lake Valley
    Posts
    9,011

    Default

    I would take all cups that were sneezed upon, and empty them into the botto of the tray. I would do it whether it was my daughter or not.

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Well, let's say that you thought no one saw, and for whatever reason, you didn't want to deal with the hassle of letting others know, you could just pass the tray as I watched someone do this morning.
    Considering it's not really a hastle, I'd just let the deacon know that he needs to get a different tray.

  9. #9
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,041

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Katy Lied View Post
    I would take all cups that were sneezed upon, and empty them into the botto of the tray. I would do it whether it was my daughter or not.
    A good solution, if one of my kids ever does this, I'll do that.

    On a positive note, I don't think that anyone else save two people at the other end of that pew got the affected cups. It was nearing the end, and I watched to see if it went somewhere else.

    I was too hemmed in to get up and tell someone, but I thought it was interesting how the person looked around slyly for a second before continuing on.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  10. #10

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Rambam View Post
    Since the water is holy and has been blessed, it will be miraculously safe for consumption in spite of the cesspool of germs sneezed into the cups by the rodent.
    It worked when I drank the muddy sacrament water collected from a nearby ditch while serving in a Toba Indian colony branch in Argentina.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    So, let's say that you're about to take the water and your three-year-old reaches up to take a cup with the tray right in front of her face and, without warning, lets loose a misty sneeze that wafts over all the remaining cups. Assume that you're in the back and it looks like no one saw. Do you cause a scene by not passing the tray to your neighbor, say nothing, quietly explain what happened to a deacon who is mortified that someone is speaking to him, or something else?
    I think I really begin to recall all the sins I had during the week and immediately declare myself ineligible for the sacrament. I'd have a very solemn face for the occasion too.

  12. #12

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    A good solution, if one of my kids ever does this, I'll do that.

    On a positive note, I don't think that anyone else save two people at the other end of that pew got the affected cups. It was nearing the end, and I watched to see if it went somewhere else.

    I was too hemmed in to get up and tell someone, but I thought it was interesting how the person looked around slyly for a second before continuing on.
    you should bring it up in PEC and make sure the deacons or whoever is passing the sacrament is aware of it and that a plan is developed for the next time something like that happens.
    Dio perdona tante cose per un’opera di misericordia
    God forgives many things for an act of mercy
    Alessandro Manzoni

    Knock it off. This board has enough problems without a dose of middle-age lechery.

    pelagius

  13. #13
    Kicked to the curb San Juan Sun's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Standing On Corner, Minding Own Business
    Posts
    9,214

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pellegrino View Post
    you should bring it up in PEC and make sure the deacons or whoever is passing the sacrament is aware of it and that a plan is developed for the next time something like that happens.
    This going to require a few more meetings before we can hash out a policy.
    "Sure, I fought. I had to fight all my life just to survive. They were all against me. Tried every dirty trick to cut me down, but I beat the bastards and left them in the ditch."

    - Ty Cobb

  14. #14
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,041

    Default

    We had a ward baby shower campfire cookout tonight. I saw a child sneeze ALL over the graham crackers, chocolate, and marshmallows. It made me think of this thread.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  15. #15
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,041

    Default

    Thinking about no church and the Sacrament and women who don't live with men who have the priesthood, could they set up a piece of bread and some water and have someone bless it over the phone, from a live feed Youtube or something, or through the television?

    What say we? Can only Men Teachers set up the bread and water? Is placing it on a table setting it up? Is covering it and uncovering it tradition or doctrine? If the former, then what does "preparing" it mean? If the latter, then how can the reality of a pandemic allow members to partake of the most important part of church?
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  16. #16
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    The 208
    Posts
    12,242

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Thinking about no church and the Sacrament and women who don't live with men who have the priesthood, could they set up a piece of bread and some water and have someone bless it over the phone, from a live feed Youtube or something, or through the television?

    What say we? Can only Men Teachers set up the bread and water? Is placing it on a table setting it up? Is covering it and uncovering it tradition or doctrine? If the former, then what does "preparing" it mean? If the latter, then how can the reality of a pandemic allow members to partake of the most important part of church?
    Back in my days as a priest, we would go to the homes of those who couldn't attend to bless the Sacrament. They would typically already have the bread and water set up waiting for our blessing, in spite of not having the Priesthood. So either setting it up is no big deal, or we should have called them to repentance.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  17. #17
    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lehi
    Posts
    5,153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Back in my days as a priest, we would go to the homes of those who couldn't attend to bless the Sacrament. They would typically already have the bread and water set up waiting for our blessing, in spite of not having the Priesthood. So either setting it up is no big deal, or we should have called them to repentance.
    Where is the doctrinal basis that Teachers prepare, and deacons pass? Is there one? I know D&C 20 says Priests administer the sacrament and Teachers and Deacons cannot. That's all I know of though.

  18. #18
    a day late/a dollar short Sullyute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    3,082

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Thinking about no church and the Sacrament and women who don't live with men who have the priesthood, could they set up a piece of bread and some water and have someone bless it over the phone, from a live feed Youtube or something, or through the television?

    What say we? Can only Men Teachers set up the bread and water? Is placing it on a table setting it up? Is covering it and uncovering it tradition or doctrine? If the former, then what does "preparing" it mean? If the latter, then how can the reality of a pandemic allow members to partake of the most important part of church?
    Nobody “needs” the sacrament. You already have your essential covenants covered in baptism and confirmation. Everyone will be fine going without the bread and water for a month or two.
    "Friendship is the grand fundamental principle of Mormonism" - Joseph Smith Jr.

  19. #19

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Thinking about no church and the Sacrament and women who don't live with men who have the priesthood, could they set up a piece of bread and some water and have someone bless it over the phone, from a live feed Youtube or something, or through the television?

    What say we? Can only Men Teachers set up the bread and water? Is placing it on a table setting it up? Is covering it and uncovering it tradition or doctrine? If the former, then what does "preparing" it mean? If the latter, then how can the reality of a pandemic allow members to partake of the most important part of church?
    All of those things can be done. The only thing that matters is that the ordinance is done in a reverent and respectful manner.

    As an aside, I was young mens president for more than ten years. After a hiatus these past few years I am now back as a young mens advisor. There was a period where we were responsible for visiting a number of shut-ins to administer sacrament; some in their homes, others in care facilities.

    In addition to bringing along a couple of young men with me, I always invited a couple of young women to join us. That way we could sing a sacrament hymn that wasn't just me singing while the boys pretended to sing. The women always loved seeing the young men, but boy did their eyes light up when they realized young women had come along for the visit as well.

  20. #20
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,041

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    All of those things can be done. The only thing that matters is that the ordinance is done in a reverent and respectful manner.

    As an aside, I was young mens president for more than ten years. After a hiatus these past few years I am now back as a young mens advisor. There was a period where we were responsible for visiting a number of shut-ins to administer sacrament; some in their homes, others in care facilities.

    In addition to bringing along a couple of young men with me, I always invited a couple of young women to join us. That way we could sing a sacrament hymn that wasn't just me singing while the boys pretended to sing. The women always loved seeing the young men, but boy did their eyes light up when they realized young women had come along for the visit as well.

    That's nice.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  21. #21

    Default

    Our area seventy told us "a person must be present during the sacrament prayer".

  22. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    Our area seventy told us "a person must be present during the sacrament prayer".
    On my mission an area seventy told us not to buy and wear "weenie or feminine" french styled suits. That's all my companion from Switzerland had, and he ended up crying himself to sleep over the comments. I sent a letter to the authority voicing my displeasure at his stupidity, and got in trouble for it.

    Regardless, a person is present; the person partaking of the sacrament. The ordinance is not for the priesthood, but for the individual who wishes to renew their covenant.
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-13-2020 at 04:54 PM.

  23. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    On my mission an area seventy told us not to buy and wear "weenie or feminine" french styled suits. That's all my companion from Switzerland had, and ended up crying himself to sleep over the comments. I sent a letter to the authority voicing my displeasure at his stupidity, and got in trouble for it.

    Regardless, a person is present; the person partaking of the sacrament. The ordinance is not for the priesthood, but for the individual who wishes to renew their covenant.
    If so, why would he feel the need to make that clarification? Are we afraid sacramental bread and water will be blessed remotely with no one in the room to partake of it?

  24. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    If so, why would he feel the need to make that clarification? Are we afraid sacramental bread and water will be blessed remotely with no one in the room to partake of it?
    Dogma insists an individual who holds the requisite priesthood must be present in the room during the voicing of the sacrament prayer. It is a reasonable requirement for the performance of said ordinance. However, pragmatically speaking, the ideal wherein an individual who holds the requisite priesthood must always be present may not always be possible. In those circumstances do we then deny a person access to God's grace and in particular the blessings of Christ's atoning sacrifice because that specific criteria cannot be met?

    In those circumstances, there is room for a broader interpretation of the term "present." In abstract do I need a general authority to be present in the same room I am in, in order to feel the spirit while listening to him or her speak? Or for that matter, is it a requirement that the sprit of a dead person be present in the temple when the ordinance of baptism is performed in proxy on their behalf?
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-13-2020 at 01:17 PM.

  25. #25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Dogma insists an individual who holds the requisite priesthood must be present in the room during the voicing of the sacrament prayer. It is a reasonable requirement for the performance of said ordinance. However, pragmatically speaking, the ideal wherein an individual who holds the requisite priesthood must always be present may not always be possible. In those circumstances do we then deny a person access to God's grace and in particular the blessings of Christ's atoning sacrifice because that specific criteria cannot be met?

    In those circumstances, there is room for a broader interpretation of the term "present." In abstract do I need a general authority to be present in the same room I am in, in order to feel the spirit while listening to him or her speak? Or for that matter, is it a requirement that the sprit of a dead person be present in the temple when the ordinance of baptism is performed in proxy on their behalf?
    I agree with you. But at this time, it would seem the Church does not want it done that way. That said, the Bishop holds the keys to the administration of the Sacrament, so if the Spirit moves him to authorize it that way, who am I to tell him he's wrong? His Stake President or an Apostle could tell him that, but I won't.

  26. #26
    UofU/BYU mixed marriage Scott R Nelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Meridian, ID
    Posts
    1,097

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tooblue View Post
    Regardless, a person is present; the person partaking of the sacrament. The ordinance is not for the priesthood, but for the individual who wishes to renew their covenant.
    Okay, what about this case: We have a big ward and there are often a number of people who don't make it inside before the sacrament starts. Those passing the sacrament will go out in the hallway for those. When they do the water, two of them will also carry a bread tray in their other hand in case someone shows up who wasn't there for the first half. Clearly they wouldn't have been present when the sacrament prayer for the bread was said.

    Just trying to understand...

  27. #27
    Adventurer Walter Sobchak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    West of House
    Posts
    3,624

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    Thinking about no church and the Sacrament and women who don't live with men who have the priesthood...
    Welcome back to full membership brother!
    You're actually pretty funny when you aren't being a complete a-hole....so basically like 5% of the time. --Art Vandelay
    Almost everything you post is snarky, smug, condescending, or just downright mean-spirited. --Jeffrey Lebowski

    Anyone can make war, but only the most courageous can make peace. --President Donald J. Trump
    You furnish the pictures, and I’ll furnish the war. --William Randolph Hearst

  28. #28

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R Nelson View Post
    Okay, what about this case: We have a big ward and there are often a number of people who don't make it inside before the sacrament starts. Those passing the sacrament will go out in the hallway for those. When they do the water, two of them will also carry a bread tray in their other hand in case someone shows up who wasn't there for the first half. Clearly they wouldn't have been present when the sacrament prayer for the bread was said.

    Just trying to understand...
    For some Bishops that is obviously OK, for others it is not. For example around theses parts, individuals who want to partake of the sacrament must be in the chapel; sacrament is not passed to people who are late and lingering in the foyer.

    The point I am making is that any rule that states a priesthood holder has to be physically present in the room while the prayer is being said is, in my opinion, splitting hairs. If I am remotely blessing the sacrament, my voice certainly is present in the room in which it is being broadcast, and the priesthood authority by which it is done is not diminished in any way.

    But as Bo points out, the church or at least the seventy he references feels otherwise. In the larger scheme of things it really doesn't matter does it. The sincerity of the ordinance and the partaker can only be questioned by the saviour.
    Last edited by tooblue; 03-13-2020 at 02:51 PM.

  29. #29

    Default

    Our bishop has authorized all worthy priests and MP holders to administer the Sacrament to our immediate families as well as any of our ministering families that need assistance.

  30. #30
    Board eye candy beefytee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Lehi
    Posts
    5,153

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo Diddley View Post
    Our bishop has authorized all worthy priests and MP holders to administer the Sacrament to our immediate families as well as any of our ministering families that need assistance.
    We got an email from the stake authorizing it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •