A light in the darkness for anti-correlation-ites?

[Dwight Schr-ute]

I for one would miss the always powerful testimony of knowing that you could go to sunday school through out the world and be confident that the same thing was being taught (literally) as in your home ward.

[Indy Coug]

I for one would miss the always powerful testimony of knowing that you could go to sunday school through out the world and be confident that the same thing was being taught (literally) as in your home ward.

Then there's the case of my Lutheran friend who faces the task every time he moves of having to find another Lutheran preacher that teaches something that actually agrees with what is supposed to be the doctrine of his church. He tells me it varies wildly from pastor to pastor. In at least one congregation they had more than one pastor and the membership revolted against one of the pastors because he got so far off track.

[LA Ute]

Benson was also quite tall.

About 6' tall, maybe a little less. Just going from memory on this. I used to wait on him at the grocery/convenience store near his house when I was in high school. He was very quiet and friendly and seemed almost small, much different from his TV persona.

[LA Ute]

Then there's the case of my Lutheran friend who faces the task every time he moves of having to find another Lutheran preacher that teaches something that actually agrees with what is supposed to be the doctrine of his church. He tells me it varies wildly from pastor to pastor. In at least one congregation they had more than one pastor and the membership revolted against one of the pastors because he got so far off track.

When we visited Nauvoo I had a long talk with a young RLDS/CofC woman who was attending Lamoni College. I asked her if she studied the Book of Mormon in church. She laughed and said it depends who your pastor is. Her pastor at college taught from it all the time, but her home pastor in Nauvoo never mentioned it, and taught from the Bible instead. I thought that was a fascinating conversation, and you just now reminded me of it. Personally, I think it would be nuts to let every ward or stake handle instruction they way it wanted to, with no uniformity. Correlation has its downsides but the laissez-faire alternative is much worse, IMO.

[myboynoah]

When we visited Nauvoo I had a long talk with a young RLDS/CofC woman who was attending Lamoni College. I asked her if she studied the Book of Mormon in church. She laughed and said it depends who your pastor is. Her pastor at college taught from it all the time, but her home pastor in Nauvoo never mentioned it, and taught from the Bible instead. I thought that was a fascinating conversation, and you just now reminded me of it. Personally, I think it would be nuts to let every ward or stake handle instruction they way it wanted to, with no uniformity. Correlation has its downsides but the laissez-faire alternative is much worse, IMO.

But that "I learned in church today" conversation would explode with all kinds of great weirdness.

[pellegrino]

How exactly am I supposed to interpret this:

Maybe I should recant. It looks like the correlation program has all the necessary requisites for a good mind control program.

Mind control (also referred to as “brainwashing,” “coercive persuasion,” “thought reform,” and the “systematic manipulation of psychological and social influence”) refers to a process in which a group or individual systematically uses unethically manipulative methods to persuade others to conform to the wishes of the manipulator(s), often to the detriment of the person being manipulated.
Such methods include:
*extensive control of information in order to limit alternatives from which members may make “choices”;
*deception;
*group pressure;
*intense indoctrination into a belief system that denigrates independent critical thinking and considers the world outside the group to be threatening, evil, or gravely in error;
*an insistence that members’ distress—much of which may consist of anxiety and guilt subtly induced by the group—can be relieved only by conforming to the group;
*physical and/or psychological debilitation through inadequate diet or fatigue;
the induction of dissociative (trance-like) states (via the misuse of meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, and other exercises) in which attention is narrowed, suggestibility heightened, and independent critical *thinking weakened;
*alternation of harshness/threats and leniency/ love in order to effect compliance with the leadership’s wishes;
*isolation from social supports;and pressured public confessions.
http://www.csj.org/studyindex/studycult/cultqa.htm

It's too bad they included that bit about physical/psychological debilitation and the harshness. Do you think we could interpret fast Sundays as that kind of torture?

[pellegrino]

When we visited Nauvoo I had a long talk with a young RLDS/CofC woman who was attending Lamoni College. I asked her if she studied the Book of Mormon in church. She laughed and said it depends who your pastor is. Her pastor at college taught from it all the time, but her home pastor in Nauvoo never mentioned it, and taught from the Bible instead. I thought that was a fascinating conversation, and you just now reminded me of it. Personally, I think it would be nuts to let every ward or stake handle instruction they way it wanted to, with no uniformity. Correlation has its downsides but the laissez-faire alternative is much worse, IMO.

Why do you feel this way? Have you experienced the laissez-faire alternative?

[LA Ute]

Why do you feel this way? Have you experienced the laissez-faire alternative?

I think everyone has, to some extent. We see it when someone decides to disregard an assigned lesson from a manual and to present whatever happens to interest them. Did you think I made up my examples of ancient American airfields and the location of Kolob?

Lest anyone think I am a hard-liner on this, I am not. (If you think I am, then you need to be a better student of my posts. Just ask Rosebud.) When I teach a class I don't always stick to the manual material, but I do stick to the topic and try to teach the principles the lesson is designed to teach. I'll bet this approach is widespread.

But here's what I am curious about: I know many here detest correlation. With what would you replace it? Nothing? In other words, what are the alternative approaches you all want to see?

[Moliere]

I think everyone has, to some extent. We see it when someone decides to disregard an assigned lesson from a manual and to present whatever happens to interest them. Did you think I made up my examples of ancient American airfields and the location of Kolob?

Lest anyone think I am a hard-liner on this, I am not. (If you think I am, then you need to be a better student of my posts. Just ask Rosebud.) When I teach a class I don't always stick to the manual material, but I do stick to the topic and try to teach the principles the lesson is designed to teach. I'll bet this approach is widespread.

But here's what I am curious about: I know many here detest correlation. With what would you replace it? Nothing? In other words, what are the alternative approaches you all want to see?

The irony here is that the church is basically saying, through correlation, that not everything preached in GC or other similar settings by prophets and apostles is scripture or the word of God. Yet, correlation teaches us that the things said in GC or other similar settings is the word of God. It's a real strange eternal circle that is starting to collapse.

The day I realized that not everything taught in GC is the word of God was the day that I stopped putting so much weight on the words of the living prophets and that just trickled down to stake leaders and bishops as well. I just try to live my life in accordance with Christ's teachings and to the extent teachings from leaders parallel Christ's teachings then I think they are good. This is how I justify being a believing LDS while being an advocate for gay marriage and playing with face cards.

[LA Ute]

The irony here is that the church is basically saying, through correlation, that not everything preached in GC or other similar settings by prophets and apostles is scripture or the word of God. Yet, correlation teaches us that the things said in GC or other similar settings is the word of God. It's a real strange eternal circle that is starting to collapse.

The day I realized that not everything taught in GC is the word of God was the day that I stopped putting so much weight on the words of the living prophets and that just trickled down to stake leaders and bishops as well. I just try to live my life in accordance with Christ's teachings and to the extent teachings from leaders parallel Christ's teachings then I think they are good. This is how I justify being a believing LDS while being an advocate for gay marriage and playing with face cards.

For the sake of your soul, I hope you don't play face cards on Sunday.

That aside, you don't have an alternative to correlation? Would you just drop it, modify it, or replace it with something else altogether?

[pellegrino]

I think everyone has, to some extent. We see it when someone decides to disregard an assigned lesson from a manual and to present whatever happens to interest them. Did you think I made up my examples of ancient American airfields and the location of Kolob?

Lest anyone think I am a hard-liner on this, I am not. (If you think I am, then you need to be a better student of my posts. Just ask Rosebud.) When I teach a class I don't always stick to the manual material, but I do stick to the topic and try to teach the principles the lesson is designed to teach. I'll bet this approach is widespread.

But here's what I am curious about: I know many here detest correlation. With what would you replace it? Nothing? In other words, what are the alternative approaches you all want to see?

I don't think you're a hardliner. I just noticed that whenever abandoning correlation is suggested, this, along with the what would you replace it with question, are commonly expressed sentiments.

Not to dismiss your example of having experienced the "laizzez-faire" alternative, but I don't think you truly have experienced it, simply because whenever an instructor wanders off the beaten path, you're comparing it to, well, the beaten path. The first things that come to every correlated* Mormon is something like "They aren't following the lesson. They shouldn't be doing that. That's not approved material. That's inappropriate material." In short, there's always a judgement that begins and ends with a comparison with the correlated material that should be presented. You aren't really experiencing a laissez-faire model in that situation, you're experiencing the uncomfortable feeling of someone rebelling (intent has no bearing) against the established system.

A truly laissez-faire system (and in part this is a response to your question), IMO would be one where the teachers don't have a pre-written script that they are required to use. One where local congregations would have most of the control over lessons and what materials would be used for classes to meet the needs of. One where students would be responsible for actually reading the scriptures, not just select verses cherry-picked to prove one of HBL's bullet points. One where deep thought and considerable meditation, became a necessity for lesson preparation, instead of token suggestions to introduce each script. One where the needs of the individual drive topic selection and class discussion, not a one size fits all approach that prioritizes institutional goals. In short, I would like to see better options for more members.


*I don't intend the adjective correlated in a pejorative sense, we are all correlated, even those who would claim the status of un-correlated.

[Indy Coug]

IMO, if teachers are assigned to teach each Sunday without any correlated lesson manuals, the quality of teaching will decline because most teachers can't/won't spend the time necessary to develop their own lessons from scratch. It's already dicey when they have manuals.

[DrumNFeather]

IMO, if teachers are assigned to teach each Sunday without any correlated lesson manuals, the quality of teaching will decline because most teachers can't/won't spend the time necessary to develop their own lessons from scratch. It's already dicey when they have manuals.

Kind of like home schooling!

[pellegrino]

IMO, if teachers are assigned to teach each Sunday without any correlated lesson manuals, the quality of teaching will decline because most teachers can't/won't spend the time necessary to develop their own lessons from scratch. It's already dicey when they have manuals.

You're assuming that lesson manuals would just go by the wayside. You also seem to conflate lesson manuals with correlation. While it is true that lesson manuals are a product of correlation, it does not mean that all lesson manuals have to be correlated.

[Jeff Lebowski]

IMO, if teachers are assigned to teach each Sunday without any correlated lesson manuals, the quality of teaching will decline because most teachers can't/won't spend the time necessary to develop their own lessons from scratch. It's already dicey when they have manuals.

I simply can't imagine church lessons being more boring than they are now. I am willing to try anything.