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Thread: Lance Armstrong is a dope

  1. #31
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    lol Creekster has been defending Lance? Creekster is ever the loyal dog, however lost the cause.
    LOL SU has been posting about cycling? SU is ever the know it all, however far from competence he is.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  2. #32
    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Really? What on earth for? Point out why and if I do owe it you will get one. But I read through that thread on cougar guard and didn't see a thing I would change (except maybe tone here and there). So, just like in 2008 in that thread, point out what you think I said that merits an apology and, if you are right, I will give you one.
    I thought your tone, here and there, was unnecessarily confrontational, especially since history has proven you wrong and I was right the entire time.
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  3. #33
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    I thought your tone, here and there, was unnecessarily confrontational, especially since history has proven you wrong and I was right the entire time.
    Please find one of my posts that was wrong. Or show me what I said that was inaccurate at the time (or now for that matter)!
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  4. #34
    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Please find one of my posts that was wrong. Or show me what I said that was inaccurate at the time (or now for that matter)!
    I will look tomorrow. I'm watching smashing pumpkins on the tonight show right now.
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  5. #35

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    Creekster,

    Do you have any thoughts about this relative to the sport of cycling? Obviously, the French will rejoice but otherwise has all this been basically internalized? Is it largely a non-event for hard-core cycling fans?

    More generally could this lead to calls for better drug testing programs in american professional sports (the NFL and MLB seems to have fairly poor implementations) or will it lead to a backlash given how much the general public really likes the Armstrong narrative (I imagine many people will dislike the USADA for destroying the narrative)?
    Last edited by pelagius; 08-23-2012 at 11:56 PM.

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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    I will look tomorrow. I'm watching smashing pumpkins on the tonight show right now.
    I always knew you weren't fully committed to CUF. I bet the smashing pumpkins are dopers, too.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  7. #37
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pelagius View Post
    Creekster,

    Do you have any thoughts about this relative to the sport of cycling? Obviously, the French will rejoice but otherwise has all this been basically internalized? Is it largely a non-event for hard-core cycling fans?

    More generally could this lead to calls for better drug testing programs in american professional sports (the NFL and MLB seems to have fairly poor implementations) or will it lead to a backlash?
    I am not sure what you are referring to exactly. The statement by LA today is pretty much a non event. The UCI should have jurisdiction per the sport and they have been critical of the USADA. But the USADA disputes this and has pursued it vigorously. The rumors are that the USADA is being influenced by the Feds to pursue this. Some have said the USADA's actions might even be informally tied to funding. It might also explain why the Feds dropped their investigation of LA so abruptly.

    Within my experience most committed cycling fans have long since decided how to deal with this. I have long concluded it was possible and even likely that he doped. Reached this conclusion without even the smallest bit of help from Triplet. The more recent evidence makes it look pretty certain. There are some who still question, but by far most think he did it.

    I am not so sure even the French will rejoice. Look who will now be declared the victors of the tours that Lance won: Ullrich, basso, etc. every one is either an admitted, accused or deeply suspected doper. So it is a little hard to imagine what purpose is being served.

    I also doubt strongly that this will result in any change in American sports. Cycling already has one of the most strict if not the strictest testing regimes of any sport. In fact, if you really dive into the USADA story the real problem wasn't the testing, it was the interpretation and use of the test results. There is simply no chance that football or baseball will ever allow their players to be subjected to random out of competition testing. Indeed, the more likely result will be the return of cycling to a marginalized status on the American sports scene.

    The fact is that when something seems too good to be true, it probably is. no one, not even Eddy Merckx, had wine more tha five titles in a row. No one had come close to seven before. Even as long time fans cheered the victories, the nagging feeling that it just wasn't quite right kept growing in their hearts, and lurking in their minds. With each revelation, the likelihood that the lance story was tainted became more certain. Today's story was just another nudge toward the end of certainty on the scale.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    There is simply no chance that football or baseball will ever allow their players to be subjected to random out of competition testing.
    To be fair, I am pretty sure both MLB and NFL do some random out of competition (off season) testing. It is just fairly limited; only a small number of players are tested and players can avoid it (at least that is my understanding). The question is how much is this very limited testing disrupting the off season PED use by football and baseball players? MY guess is not very much. Although, it may be good enough that they are largely doing short acting stuff because there is some chance of a test (even if it low).
    Last edited by pelagius; 08-24-2012 at 12:39 AM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    I am not sure what you are referring to exactly. The statement by LA today is pretty much a non event. The UCI should have jurisdiction per the sport and they have been critical of the USADA. But the USADA disputes this and has pursued it vigorously. The rumors are that the USADA is being influenced by the Feds to pursue this. Some have said the USADA's actions might even be informally tied to funding. It might also explain why the Feds dropped their investigation of LA so abruptly.

    Within my experience most committed cycling fans have long since decided how to deal with this. I have long concluded it was possible and even likely that he doped. Reached this conclusion without even the smallest bit of help from Triplet. The more recent evidence makes it look pretty certain. There are some who still question, but by far most think he did it.

    I am not so sure even the French will rejoice. Look who will now be declared the victors of the tours that Lance won: Ullrich, basso, etc. every one is either an admitted, accused or deeply suspected doper. So it is a little hard to imagine what purpose is being served.

    I also doubt strongly that this will result in any change in American sports. Cycling already has one of the most strict if not the strictest testing regimes of any sport. In fact, if you really dive into the USADA story the real problem wasn't the testing, it was the interpretation and use of the test results. There is simply no chance that football or baseball will ever allow their players to be subjected to random out of competition testing. Indeed, the more likely result will be the return of cycling to a marginalized status on the American sports scene.

    The fact is that when something seems too good to be true, it probably is. no one, not even Eddy Merckx, had wine more tha five titles in a row. No one had come close to seven before. Even as long time fans cheered the victories, the nagging feeling that it just wasn't quite right kept growing in their hearts, and lurking in their minds. With each revelation, the likelihood that the lance story was tainted became more certain. Today's story was just another nudge toward the end of certainty on the scale.
    Thanks for that commentary. I'm torn over LA because I think he came to pretty much the same conclusion that Bonds did; both looked around and saw others excelling and getting rewarded for it by cheating. So they partook.

    A work colleague in France, as well as many, many others, concluded that they were all cheating, so LA's achievements should be viewed through that lens; he was the best among a group of cheaters. I can understand that, and as result, 7 wins still seems pretty extraordinary (except I guess when you consider that some of his best competition was getting caught and not eligible while he got those wins). That's why I still love what Landis did on Stage 17 and it is hard for me not to remember it with fondness--what a ride and perhaps my best TDF memory. But still, they cheated.

    I know I've said this before, but what really sets it apart for me is how aggressively and vindictively LA went about using his position in USA cycling circles to squash all opposition and intimidate everyone that could threaten him. I guess he felt he had to protect the franchise.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

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  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    I also doubt strongly that this will result in any change in American sports.
    No doubt this is probably right, but Lance Armstrong was a huge sport icon. He is arguably as big as any sports figure in the US over the past 20 years. At some point does the sporting public just get plain sick of the prospect of more tarnished legends? This could lead to less tolerance over time for lax testing. I generally have this sense that the American professional leagues are walking a fine line here. They have cracked down some because of public demands, but they worry about cracking down completely because of the prospect of really substantial decreases in performance (e.g., MLBs limited use of carbon isotype ratio tests as evidence consistent with this hypothesis).
    Last edited by pelagius; 08-24-2012 at 12:59 AM.

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    Faith crisis consultant SeattleUte's Avatar
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    By the way, the title to this thread is wrong. Dockbruster doesn't know what blood doping is. Some mod please take out the word blood. Thanks.
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    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    By the way, the title to this thread is wrong. Dockbruster doesn't know what blood doping is. Some mod please take out the word blood. Thanks.
    Well, reportedly USPS was doing that as well.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

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    Senior Member dabrockster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    By the way, the title to this thread is wrong. Dockbruster doesn't know what blood doping is. Some mod please take out the word blood. Thanks.
    Link from original article:


    Armstrong received a letter Tuesday that said USADA alleges he possessed and used testosterone and blood-doping products while a member of the U.S. Postal racing team, beginning in 1998.

    StupidUte: STFU

  14. #44
    BYU Delenda Est Mormon Red Death's Avatar
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    Can someone explain to me how this is anything more than a witch hunt? Have there been failed tests?

    "There is zero physical evidence to support (the) outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of (doping) controls I have passed with flying colors," Armstrong said.
    "USADA's conduct raises serious questions about whether its real interest in charging Armstrong is to combat doping, or if it is acting according to less noble motives," such as politics or publicity, U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks wrote.
    "There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, 'Enough is enough.' For me, that time is now," Armstrong said in a statement sent to The Associated Press. He called the USADA investigation an "unconstitutional witch hunt."

    "I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999," he said. "The toll this has taken on my family and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today -- finished with this nonsense."
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

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  15. #45
    Where's Wallace? Surfah's Avatar
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    USADA claims to have evidence of doping after retesting 2009 samples, but every time I convince myself Lance was a doper I think of how amazing that Tour was and being able to podium.

    USADA is a joke. I fully believe that this was nothing more than a publicity stunt and money grab to justify their funding and existence especially considering the way they picked up the case that the feds dropped. That said, they probably did have some dirt.
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  16. #46
    BYU Delenda Est Mormon Red Death's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfah View Post
    USADA claims to have evidence of doping after retesting 2009 samples, but every time I convince myself Lance was a doper I think of how amazing that Tour was and being able to podium.

    USADA is a joke. I fully believe that this was nothing more than a publicity stunt and money grab to justify their funding and existence especially considering the way they picked up the case that the feds dropped. That said, they probably did have some dirt.
    They are testing blood that is two years old. I'm not buying anythign the USADA clowns are selling.
    "Be a philosopher. A man can compromise to gain a point. It has become apparent that a man can, within limits, follow his inclinations within the arms of the Church if he does so discreetly." - The Walking Drum

    "And here’s what life comes down to—not how many years you live, but how many of those years are filled with bullshit that doesn’t amount to anything to satisfy the requirements of some dickhead you’ll never get the pleasure of punching in the face." – Adam Carolla

  17. #47

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    I respect Lance more for doing this. Enough is enough.

    I hope it starts a bigger fight as to whether USADA can strip titles.

  18. #48
    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    They are testing blood that is two years old. I'm not buying anythign the USADA clowns are selling.
    What does that matter? People get exonerated from blood that is decades old.

    This very issue will define lance Armstrong and his legacy. If he really were innocent, he wouldn't give up the fight. He loses everything by not clearing his name.

    Lances teammates have indicated he is a cheat, his otherworldly accomplishments are so far out of the realm of ordinary that it raises eyebrows, and beating a doping test in a sport that is filled to the brim with dopers evading tests hardly exonerates him. They nailed him to the wall and he finally can't fight it anymore. Adios, cheater. Lance is a fraud. He beat cancer and for that he can be proud and grateful, but his persona is a lie.

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleUte View Post
    By the way, the title to this thread is wrong. Dockbruster doesn't know what blood doping is. Some mod please take out the word blood. Thanks.
    "dockbruster" is a great one. Added.
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    Senior Member SteelBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormon Red Death View Post
    Can someone explain to me how this is anything more than a witch hunt? Have there been failed tests?
    They've got him and he knows it. Dropping the fight and saying "I'm sick of this and I give up" is the smartest move he had left.

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBlue View Post
    They've got him and he knows it. Dropping the fight and saying "I'm sick of this and I give up" is the smartest move he had left.
    Exactly. It is the only way he can maintain his charade of innocence and continue to cash in over the next decade or so. Although if he loses his TDF titles, nobody will want to pay the guy for anything anymore. I think either way, he loses. This way at least he gets to pretend that he is innocent. Protesting would have made public the results and that would have been a disaster.
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  23. #53
    Where's Wallace? Surfah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelBlue View Post
    They've got him and he knows it. Dropping the fight and saying "I'm sick of this and I give up" is the smartest move he had left.
    Agreed. This is his only shot at hoping the UCI doesn't strip the titles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfah View Post
    Agreed. This is his only shot at hoping the UCI doesn't strip the titles.

    I believe UCI has already asked USADA for their evidence.

  25. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    Lances teammates have indicated he is a cheat, his otherworldly accomplishments are so far out of the realm of ordinary that it raises eyebrows, and beating a doping test in a sport that is filled to the brim with dopers evading tests hardly exonerates him.
    we're not talking about one test that lance weaseled his way out of here. he passed hundreds of control tests. by the way, the testimony of two witnesses promised immunity for merely testifying is somehow supposed to be compelling enough to strip him of titles?
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    Senior Member dabrockster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    "dockbruster" is a great one. Added.
    DDD keeps a list of nicknames for me.. How flattering...

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    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfah View Post
    USADA claims to have evidence of doping after retesting 2009 samples, but every time I convince myself Lance was a doper I think of how amazing that Tour was and being able to podium.

    USADA is a joke. I fully believe that this was nothing more than a publicity stunt and money grab to justify their funding and existence especially considering the way they picked up the case that the feds dropped. That said, they probably did have some dirt.
    So they are stripping him of titles earned well before 2009 because he tested positive for doping in 2009? Why don't they go back and test the samples from the years he won the titles?
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  28. #58
    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pelagius View Post
    To be fair, I am pretty sure both MLB and NFL do some random out of competition (off season) testing. It is just fairly limited; only a small number of players are tested and players can avoid it (at least that is my understanding). The question is how much is this very limited testing disrupting the off season PED use by football and baseball players? MY guess is not very much. Although, it may be good enough that they are largely doing short acting stuff because there is some chance of a test (even if it low).
    Is the testing out of season truly random? I thought they were given notice or had a relatively narrow time frame within which they knew the tests would occur. Either way, I am certain that their is no sport anywhere that has a more vigorous testing plan than cycling. In fact, as you might recall, a couple of years ago a danish cyclist was banned not becasue he tested postiive, but becasue he failed to tell the doping aganecy where he was vacationing so they couldnt find him for random out of season tests. (to be fair, that guy was almost certainly a real cheat, but you get the point.)

    Is cycling unique in its cheating regimes? Or are other sports also likely involved? Victor Conte, of BALCO fame, said that the large majority of track and field athletes were doping. we know major league ballplayers are doing it (colon, cabrera). So I tend to think other sports are not clean either.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

  29. #59
    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by camleish View Post
    we're not talking about one test that lance weaseled his way out of here. he passed hundreds of control tests. by the way, the testimony of two witnesses promised immunity for merely testifying is somehow supposed to be compelling enough to strip him of titles?
    Whoa. Are they stripping him of his titles based solely off the testimony of two witnesses promised immunity for merely testifying? If so, I agree with you. That is unfair.
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  30. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Is the testing out of season truly random? I thought they were given notice or had a relatively narrow time frame within which they knew the tests would occur. Either way, I am certain that their is no sport anywhere that has a more vigorous testing plan than cycling. In fact, as you might recall, a couple of years ago a danish cyclist was banned not becasue he tested postiive, but becasue he failed to tell the doping aganecy where he was vacationing so they couldnt find him for random out of season tests. (to be fair, that guy was almost certainly a real cheat, but you get the point.)
    You may be right that it isn't really random in the off season. And my understanding of avoidance is similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    Is cycling unique in its cheating regimes? Or are other sports also likely involved? Victor Conte, of BALCO fame, said that the large majority of track and field athletes were doping. we know major lbare not clean either.
    One thing I don't like is the notion that cycling is the dirtiest of major sports. That was claimed un-critically on ESPN this morning several times. I suppose it is possible that the gains to PEDs are higher for cycling than the other sports but it is not by much if it is true. The gains to running based sports both distance and sprinting are huge. The expected income gains are probably smaller for track and field but there still plenty of monetary incentive. But American Football also has huge potential gains to PED use. Nearly every position relies heavily on speed and explosive strength. Not only that but recovery after games and between seasons is brutal. Steroids provide huge benefits to recovery. The monetary incentives are huge. Add to that lax testing and relative small penalities. If I had to guess, football is super dirty and has been super dirty since the early 70s. Steroid use is common by the 60s in bodybuilding. Football was never far behind. There is on over 40 year history of substantial PED use in football.

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