Boy Scouts reviewing Ban on Gays ...

[UVACoug]

LOL. If I didn't know better I would say this was posted by a former LDS leader of mine. The same one that shot down my suggestion to invite the girls to participate in some of the venture crew activities. The BSA did design the Venturing program to be co-ed after all. I can't take credit for the idea.

Maybe all the gay boys should just join girl scouts.

[UVACoug]

Yeah, I can't think of anyone in my unit right now that I would suspect is gay. There was one young man that I suspected was gay. He had more girl friends than than guy friends. I overhead him talking on his cell phone to his girl friends more than once. It was like how girls talk to each other. He complained about camping but always went. All and all I really enjoyed having him as part of our unit (unlike some other young men I would have liked to have kicked out).

He got his eagle scout rank, served an honorable mission, and is attending BYU. I was talking to his parents recently to catch up on how he was doing and they informed me that he was more interested in guys than girls. This was right after the church had announced they were in support of the policy change. They mentioned that he was very happy about that announcement.

I have to wonder about what the church's policy is on openly gay young men serving missions. I suspect the currently policy "raises the bar" on that so I suspect that most would keep their attraction to other men on the low down so they can serve.

I know of several "openly gay" people that have served missions in the last several years. The Church doesn't seem to have a problem with it (at least the bishop and stake president that signed the mission papers didn't, and the mission president didn't send them home).

[Moliere]

The change is that now kids that are gay are more likely to be open about it with their parents, friends, bishops or other people that can support them without having the fear of being kicked out of scouts. That may not seem like a serious threat (being kicked out of scouts), but when all your peers in church are in scouts, it is a big deal. You are right that many gay kids have participated in scouts over the years (including myself). Now they can do it without having to wait until their 20s to come out and get the support they need.

I think pressure to stay in the closet hurts a lot of kids. When they eventually come out when they move out of their parents house, they often feel alienated and shunned by their parents when the truth often is that their parents just don't have the opportunity to learn how to support their gay children when they are away from home.

To me, this is a big change and a very important one. More changes like this need to happen. Sexual topics, and especially sexual orientation topics, are still very taboo in Mormon households. I think that does a lot of harm. I'm not saying that the Church should stop teaching the law of chastity, or that it should modify the law of chastity (I know some here feel that way). Parents just need to be more frank with their children about these topics, and the Church and parents need to remove any obstacle that might be preventing a child from feeling comfortable talking to their parents about these topics. If they don't talk to their parents about it, they will get the information from other sources ... which are often bad sources.

This policy "change" will hopefully also help some straight kids and parents learn to be more accepting and supportive of the gay kids in their wards.

Great points and I appreciate this perspective.

[CardiacCoug]

The change is that now kids that are gay are more likely to be open about it with their parents, friends, bishops or other people that can support them without having the fear of being kicked out of scouts. That may not seem like a serious threat (being kicked out of scouts), but when all your peers in church are in scouts, it is a big deal. You are right that many gay kids have participated in scouts over the years (including myself). Now they can do it without having to wait until their 20s to come out and get the support they need.

I think pressure to stay in the closet hurts a lot of kids. When they eventually come out when they move out of their parents house, they often feel alienated and shunned by their parents when the truth often is that their parents just don't have the opportunity to learn how to support their gay children when they are away from home.

To me, this is a big change and a very important one. More changes like this need to happen. Sexual topics, and especially sexual orientation topics, are still very taboo in Mormon households. I think that does a lot of harm. I'm not saying that the Church should stop teaching the law of chastity, or that it should modify the law of chastity (I know some here feel that way). Parents just need to be more frank with their children about these topics, and the Church and parents need to remove any obstacle that might be preventing a child from feeling comfortable talking to their parents about these topics. If they don't talk to their parents about it, they will get the information from other sources ... which are often bad sources.

This policy "change" will hopefully also help some straight kids and parents learn to be more accepting and supportive of the gay kids in their wards.

Good post. Thanks for these thoughts.

The best thing that could come from this is that a lot of LDS people will finally learn what Church policy is regarding homosexuality.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

I've seen so many posts recently about people worried about how to solve the tenting issue and the only safe answer was to put the openly gay scout in solitary confinement. That doesn't sit well with me. If some of the kids that were in scouts when I was a young man are still in the program (and I have no reason to believe that that kind of mentality doesn't still exist in today's youth) then I have serious concerns about leaving these vulnerable boys exposed and alone in the dark. If I'm a scout leader and one of these kids shows up to breakfast with a black eye or worse, it would be hard for me to forgive myself.

[CardiacCoug]

I've seen so many posts recently about people worried about how to solve the tenting issue and the only safe answer was to put the openly gay scout in solitary confinement. That doesn't sit well with me. If some of the kids that were in scouts when I was a young man are still in the program (and I have no reason to believe that that kind of mentality doesn't still exist in today's youth) then I have serious concerns about leaving these vulnerable boys exposed and alone in the dark. If I'm a scout leader and one of these kids shows up to breakfast with a black eye or worse, it would be hard for me to forgive myself.

Yep. Good hell, with all the terrible things that could happen on a campout that should be the last worry on any parent's mind.

[UVACoug]

I've seen so many posts recently about people worried about how to solve the tenting issue and the only safe answer was to put the openly gay scout in solitary confinement. That doesn't sit well with me. If some of the kids that were in scouts when I was a young man are still in the program (and I have no reason to believe that that kind of mentality doesn't still exist in today's youth) then I have serious concerns about leaving these vulnerable boys exposed and alone in the dark. If I'm a scout leader and one of these kids shows up to breakfast with a black eye or worse, it would be hard for me to forgive myself.

Solon has it right. This is pure homophobia. People are scared their kids will "catch the gay" if their kids have to share a tent or a shower with a gay scout.

[Uncle Ted]

I know of several "openly gay" people that have served missions in the last several years. The Church doesn't seem to have a problem with it (at least the bishop and stake president that signed the mission papers didn't, and the mission president didn't send them home).

So are "openly gay" missionaries put in solitary confinement? This seems like an obvious problem with the companion rule. Of course, it would have been nice to have my own room. Hmm...

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[Uncle Ted]

I've seen so many posts recently about people worried about how to solve the tenting issue and the only safe answer was to put the openly gay scout in solitary confinement. That doesn't sit well with me. If some of the kids that were in scouts when I was a young man are still in the program (and I have no reason to believe that that kind of mentality doesn't still exist in today's youth) then I have serious concerns about leaving these vulnerable boys exposed and alone in the dark. If I'm a scout leader and one of these kids shows up to breakfast with a black eye or worse, it would be hard for me to forgive myself.

Are you implying that the other boys might pull a "BKP code red" on an openly gay boy? See the BSA policy on bullying.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Are you implying that the other boys might pull a "BKP code red" on an openly gay boy? See the BSA policy on bullying.

lol.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I got an e-mail today from the local BSA council (Utah National Parks). It was a newsletter. I was pleasantly surprised to see that they were taking a positive, proactive approach to the new policy. This is the top part of the newsletter:



However, when I clicked on the "REAM MORE..." link, this is what I got:



I have been clicking on it since last night, and it appears that "a minute" has stretched into a day or two. Could be a coincidence, but I am guessing that there might be a little infighting about the best way to react to this. I bet the link stays broken for a few days.

[Uncle Ted]

http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/...-mormon-church

More fall out...

OnMyHonor.Net, which encouraged prayers against the change, and the socially conservative Family Research Council took out an ad in The Dallas Morning News Thursday supporting the gay ban. A statement on the website said a "coalition" of ban supporters will meet privately next month in Louisville, Ky., to "discuss the creation of a new character development organization for boys."


It's unclear how many opponents of gay scouts will bolt from the national organization. A survey conducted by the Boy Scouts earlier this year predicted widespread defections if the ban affecting gay youth and adults was scrapped in its entirety.


"We grieve today, not because we are faced with leaving Scouting, but because the Boy Scouts of America has left us," said the website's statement. "Its leadership has turned its back on 103 years of abiding by a mission to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices."

The ban on gay scouts was often unenforced and sometimes openly flouted, but the Family Research Council's president, Tony Perkins, said its official doom was the result of national council delegates "capitulat[ing] to strong-arm tactics" after a "concerted and manipulative effort by the national BSA leadership."


"[W]e will stand with those BSA Councils who will now act to protect boys from a new policy that only creates moral confusion and disrespects the views of the vast majority of Scouting parents," Perkins said.


Perkins predicted that "God will soon be ushered out of scouting," presumably referencing the continued Boy Scouts membership ban affecting nonreligious youth and adults.

However, there might be hope for λ some day...

A 2008 statement on the Boy Scouts national council's website explains the continued ban prohibiting nonreligious members.


"Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God," says the statement. "Because of Scouting's methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as members or adult volunteer leaders."

Atheists have called on the Boy Scouts to knock down the ban on nonbelievers next. "If the Boy Scouts want to stay relevant, they need to finish the job," said August Brunsman, executive director of the Secular Student Alliance, a nonprofit that supports nonreligious high school and college students.

[ERCougar]

I had no idea there was a ban on agnostics/atheist scouts or leaders. I guess I should know that, given that God is mentioned in the oath, but it also seems to be not at all enforceable. And silly.

Isn't scouting where they put all the Jack Mormons?

[Solon]

http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/...-mormon-church

There is definitely precedent for starting new groups if the BSA doesn't fill a perceived need.

One of my favorite Americans, Luther Gulick, was instrumental in founding the Campfire Girls (now just called "Camp Fire") a hundred years ago because he and his wife wanted a BSA-type organization for girls.

Gulick also devised the triangular YMCA logo, and he was the guy who asked Naismith to come up with some kind of winter sport that could be played in a gym. (how'd that work out?)

The guy really was a visionary.

I think the BSA could learn a lot from Campfire and its willingness to adapt over time.

Here is Camp Fire's Statement of Inclusion:

Camp Fire's Statement of Inclusion:

Camp Fire works to realize the dignity and worth of each individual and to eliminate human barriers based on all assumptions which prejudge individuals.

Our program standards are designed and implemented to reduce sexual, racial, and cultural stereotypes and to foster positive intercultural relationships. In Camp Fire, everyone is welcome. http://www.campfireusa.org/inclusionPolicy.aspx

[Donuthole]

So wasn't something supposed to be read from the pulpit this week? Didn't happen in our ward. I was looking forward to watching the reactions of the homophobe scout-lifers in our ward as the FP letter was read.