Boy Scouts reviewing Ban on Gays ...

[SeattleUte]

Unless you guys think it’s a bad thing that the BSA decided to admit LGBT and girls, there’s nothing wrong with the BSA. Nobody says otherwise. Maybe that’s what you think, and since you’re practicing Mormons, I presume that your derision for the BSA is for that reason.

But there may be something else going on here, I acknowledge. As Noah suggests, getting your kids through Eagle is a slog. It takes a lot of precious resources and can even create tension in the family. My kids are doing something not dissimilar going through Suzuki (there it’s books, not merit badges and Life, etc., and strings concerts, not camp outs; my son’s ballet regimen is sort of the same). It’s tough! And it’s not for every family. One of the things the Church did wrong was create this expectation and burden for every family. Some here I can tell are taking out their distaste for the work and tedium of getting a kid through this on the BSA. If it’s not for you, fine. But that doesn’t mean that for a family that makes a different choice it’s not a marvelous thing. That’s probably why Jeff is bitter. He resents the enforced labor and focus of BSA. And add that to the Chruch’s other intrusions and demands, it can be very onerous (in my own life, Suzuki, sometimes feels like church; maybe because the concerts are always in borrowed church space).

I think you all need to be honest with yourselves about your antipathy for the BSA. The only thing anyone ever said was wrong with it was that it excluded girls and gays. And now that’s fixed. Maybe it’s not for you. It’s not for me. But it doesn’t mean that the organization and brand don’t have tremendous value.

[SeattleUte]

SU, did you even read this?

Embedded Tweet

Huh?

Yes, I did. He’s right. As we’ve seen, when a religion feels threatened by secular movements, and just can’t cope with them, it turns inward. It’s never a good thing.

[myboynoah]

Yes, I did. He’s right. As we’ve seen, when a religion feels threatened by secular movements, and just can’t cope with them, it turns inward. It’s never a good thing.

Seriously? The Church opts out of BSA and the conclusion is that it is turning inward? People need to pay better attention.

[falafel]

Unless you guys think it’s a bad thing that the BSA decided to admit LGBT and girls, there’s nothing wrong with the BSA. Nobody says otherwise. Maybe that’s what you think, and since you’re practicing Mormons, I presume that your derision for the BSA is for that reason.

But there may be something else going on here, I acknowledge. As Noah suggests, getting your kids through Eagle is a slog. It takes a lot of precious resources and can even create tension in the family. My kids are doing something not dissimilar going through Suzuki (there it’s books, not merit badges and Life, etc., and strings concerts, not camp outs; my son’s ballet regimen is sort of the same). It’s tough! And it’s not for every family. One of the things the Church did wrong was create this expectation and burden for every family. Some here I can tell are taking out their distaste for the work and tedium of getting a kid through this on the BSA. If it’s not for you, fine. But that doesn’t mean that for a family that makes a different choice it’s not a marvelous thing. That’s probably why Jeff is bitter. He resents the enforced labor and focus of BSA. And add that to the Chruch’s other intrusions and demands, it can be very onerous (in my own life, Suzuki, sometimes feels like church; maybe because the concerts are always in borrowed church space).

I think you all need to be honest with yourselves about your antipathy for the BSA. The only thing anyone ever said was wrong with it was that it excluded girls and gays. And now that’s fixed. Maybe it’s not for you. It’s not for me. But it doesn’t mean that the organization and brand don’t have tremendous value.

Its also expensive, bloated with overpaid leadership and liability costs.

[creekster]

Unless you guys think it’s a bad thing that the BSA decided to admit LGBT and girls, there’s nothing wrong with the BSA. Nobody says otherwise. Maybe that’s what you think, and since you’re practicing Mormons, I presume that your derision for the BSA is for that reason.

But there may be something else going on here, I acknowledge. As Noah suggests, getting your kids through Eagle is a slog. It takes a lot of precious resources and can even create tension in the family. My kids are doing something not dissimilar going through Suzuki (there it’s books, not merit badges and Life, etc., and strings concerts, not camp outs; my son’s ballet regimen is sort of the same). It’s tough! And it’s not for every family. One of the things the Church did wrong was create this expectation and burden for every family. Some here I can tell are taking out their distaste for the work and tedium of getting a kid through this on the BSA. If it’s not for you, fine. But that doesn’t mean that for a family that makes a different choice it’s not a marvelous thing. That’s probably why Jeff is bitter. He resents the enforced labor and focus of BSA. And add that to the Chruch’s other intrusions and demands, it can be very onerous (in my own life, Suzuki, sometimes feels like church; maybe because the concerts are always in borrowed church space).

Btw, given how valuable the BSA to raising young men, according to you, and given the power of its brand, why aren't your kids involved in BSA instead of or along with ballet, for example?

I think you all need to be honest with yourselves about your antipathy for the BSA. The only thing anyone ever said was wrong with it was that it excluded girls and gays. And now that’s fixed. Maybe it’s not for you. It’s not for me. But it doesn’t mean that the organization and brand don’t have tremendous value.

I guess you have been away for longer than I realized. There has been fairly strong sentimnet among the rank and file of the church, at least in my area, to ditch scouts for a long time. Before there were any real issues relating to the LGBT crowd at all. The fact is that most LDS troops do a pretty weak version of scouting and most councils around here roll their eyes at us, for good reason at times. Moreover, given my very, very positive experiences with Girsl camp in our stake, and seeing a vision of how that sort of approach could also work for the boys, I have long been in favor of ditching the scouts.

Also, I feel fairly confident that this turn of events represents the BSA punking the church. I know how the church works and there is a probability of zero that this announcement was made because of the BSA announcement. It was a decision that was long in arriving, and notice was undoubtedly given to the BSA. I believe that it is much more likely That the BSA, knowing the church was going to dump them, decided to make a proactive announcement so that they could look progressive, rather than reactive. I would further speculate that this has annoyed the church leaders a fair amount, and underscored that it is time to get out of Dodge, as it were.

BTW, given the power of the BSA brand and the great value add their program is to young lives, as you have described above, why aren't your kids involved instead of, or along with, ballet, for example?

[SeattleUte]

I guess you have been away for longer than I realized. There has been fairly strong sentimnet among the rank and file of the church, at least in my area, to ditch scouts for a long time. Before there were any real issues relating to the LGBT crowd at all. The fact is that most LDS troops do a pretty weak version of scouting and most councils around here roll their eyes at us, for good reason at times. Moreover, given my very, very positive experiences with Girsl camp in our stake, and seeing a vision of how that sort of approach could also work for the boys, I have long been in favor of ditching the scouts.

Also, I feel fairly confident that this turn of events represents the BSA punking the church. I know how the church works and there is a probability of zero that this announcement was made because of the BSA announcement. It was a decision that was long in arriving, and notice was undoubtedly given to the BSA. I believe that it is much more likely That the BSA, knowing the church was going to dump them, decided to make a proactive announcement so that they could look progressive, rather than reactive. I would further speculate that this has annoyed the church leaders a fair amount, and underscored that it is time to get out of Dodge, as it were.

BTW, given the power of the BSA brand and the great value add their program is to young lives, as you have described above, why aren't your kids involved instead of, or along with, ballet, for example?

You are just confirming the second reason I explained for the negative reaction here to the BSA. As I said, if done right, it’s hard to do. No wonder people resent being conscripted into scouting and no wonder that so many wards do it half-assed.

Actually, I don’t know any among my Mormon friends and family or here who I think were opposed to admission of girls and LGBT (the worst part of the LDS Church is its leaders). But we’ve been talking mostly about PR, and that’s how it looks. Actually, I think everything we’ve discussed played into it, and the Church just did a cost-benefit analysis.

It’s getting easier and easier to be a Mormon. Two-piece garments, no Boy Scouts, shortened Sunday meetings. What next? Wine in moderation?

[SeattleUte]

As for why don’t my family do BSA, my kids are too busy with their existing activities. I know that those here who find the BSA tredious find other rewarding activities that similarly teach their kids the value of hard work, tradition while honoring diversity and tolerance, etc, (see the article I tweeted).

[creekster]

You are just confirming the second reason I explained for the negative reaction here to the BSA. As I said, if done right, it’s hard to do. No wonder people resent being conscripted into scouting and no wonder that so many wards do it half-assed.

Actually, I don’t know any among my Mormon friends and family or here who I think were opposed to admission of girls and LGBT (the worst part of the LDS Church is its leaders). But we’ve been talking mostly about PR, and that’s how it looks. Actually, I think everything we’ve discussed played into it, and the Church just did a cost-benefit analysis.

It’s getting easier and easier to be a Mormon. Two-piece garments, no Boy Scouts, shortened Sunday meetings. What next? Wine in moderation?

You are really all over the place on this. So now it ISNT about the LGBQT or YW issue, its just because it is so hard? If that is so, you are tacitly c that this decision was under discussion for a long period and that it is more probable that the BSA took advantage of the Church's choice to try to help its own optics.

Glad to see you are seeing the merit in the church, again. You should just come back and keep drinking a little wine. All it will do is keep you out of the temple and onerous callings, which are hard things and none of us want them anyway.

[creekster]

As for why don’t my family do BSA, my kids are too busy with their existing activities. I know that those here who find the BSA tredious find other rewarding activities that similarly teach their kids the value of hard work, tradition while honoring diversity and tolerance, etc, (see the article I tweeted).

The article you tweeted was hooey. Poorly written and poorly reasoned. And I think you know it, given what you JUST POSTED about the actual reasons for the church leaving scouts.

Btw, my boys both got their eagles AND became pretty accomplished musicians on one or more instruments, including achieving highest levels in the CMEA competitions. So, you know, its not too hard.

[SeattleUte]

You are really all over the place on this. So now it ISNT about the LGBQT or YW issue, its just because it is so hard? If that is so, you are tacitly c that this decision was under discussion for a long period and that it is more probable that the BSA took advantage of the Church's choice to try to help its own optics.

Glad to see you are seeing the merit in the church, again. You should just come back and keep drinking a little wine. All it will do is keep you out of the temple and onerous callings, which are hard things and none of us want them anyway.

Nothing I’ve said suggests otherwise. I’m sure it was a cost-benefit analysis. Enforced participation in the BSA wasn’t working (Duh! Let’s make every kid play in a youth symphony orchestra; how would that work?). Then when the LGBG/girls thing happened, that was the straw that broke the camel’s back or the proximate cause.

The Church itself said that the LGBT thing caused it to reevaluate its involvement with BSA. Why are you denying it? Of course, to just about all the rest of the world that was the only reason.

[creekster]

Nothing I’ve said suggests otherwise. I’m sure it was a cost-benefit analysis. Enforced participation in the BSA wasn’t working (Duh! Let’s make every kid play in a youth symphony orchestra; how would that work?). Then when the LGBG/girls thing happened, that was the straw that broke the camel’s back or the proximate cause.

The Church itself said that the LGBT thing caused it to reevaluate its involvement with BSA. Why are you denying it? Of course, to just about all the rest of the world that was the only reason.

Of course it was an issue. We are talking about the timing. I know you'll never expressly admit it, though. Which is fine.

[falafel]

It’s getting easier and easier to be a Mormon. Two-piece garments, no Boy Scouts, shortened Sunday meetings. What next? Wine in moderation?

Damn, it really has been a long time since you left.

[smokymountainrain]

shortened sunday meetings? now SU just making stuff up. lol.

[falafel]

shortened sunday meetings? now SU just making stuff up. lol.

Down to 3 hours from 5, and now they include them all in one "block."

[Jeff Lebowski]

Unless you guys think it’s a bad thing that the BSA decided to admit LGBT and girls, there’s nothing wrong with the BSA. Nobody says otherwise. Maybe that’s what you think, and since you’re practicing Mormons, I presume that your derision for the BSA is for that reason.

But there may be something else going on here, I acknowledge. As Noah suggests, getting your kids through Eagle is a slog. It takes a lot of precious resources and can even create tension in the family. My kids are doing something not dissimilar going through Suzuki (there it’s books, not merit badges and Life, etc., and strings concerts, not camp outs; my son’s ballet regimen is sort of the same). It’s tough! And it’s not for every family. One of the things the Church did wrong was create this expectation and burden for every family. Some here I can tell are taking out their distaste for the work and tedium of getting a kid through this on the BSA. If it’s not for you, fine. But that doesn’t mean that for a family that makes a different choice it’s not a marvelous thing. That’s probably why Jeff is bitter. He resents the enforced labor and focus of BSA. And add that to the Chruch’s other intrusions and demands, it can be very onerous (in my own life, Suzuki, sometimes feels like church; maybe because the concerts are always in borrowed church space).

I think you all need to be honest with yourselves about your antipathy for the BSA. The only thing anyone ever said was wrong with it was that it excluded girls and gays. And now that’s fixed. Maybe it’s not for you. It’s not for me. But it doesn’t mean that the organization and brand don’t have tremendous value.

Whoa! WTH? Are you referring to me with that comment? I am not bitter in the least. I was laughing at how you have suddenly become such a cheerleader of the BSA and think it is cool and hip with a bright future. Have you enrolled your son in the BSA? Are you a volunteer leader? I didn't think so.

I have three sons and I spent 23 years of my life as a BSA leader of some sort. I enjoyed scouts because I love the outdoors and I enjoyed spending time with my boys and their friends in the mountains. I am also highly organized - in fact I wrote an Excel VBA tool (now on Google Sheets) for managing troop data that I shared with the public and it is now fairly widely used. I still maintain it. I was fortunate to be in a ward with lots of resources. I always had a big group of competent leaders, a healthy budget, and a fully-staffed scout committee. I never once had to manage a court of honor or a friends of scouting drive when I was scoutmaster. I told the bishop to just leave me there because I enjoyed it and I was good at it. He was smart enough to know when he had a good thing so he left me alone.

That being said, I have been arguing for years that while the BSA is a great organization, the church would be better off to drop scouting for the following reasons:

1) it is crazy to think that all wards in the church would be able to run a scouting program like we did. Very few wards have the leadership resources and activity levels we enjoyed.

2) It is crazy to think that every boy (and family) in the church is going to be interested in scouting. Some people like it, some don't. There is no good reason to try to get everyone to do it.

3) It is a very inefficient way to run a church youth program. Unless you have been a leader, you can't appreciate all the overhead it takes to run a successful program: uniforms, badges, camping equipment, supplies, paperwork for all badges and rank advancements, interviews for all badges and rank advancements, leadership training, etc etc etc. It is also expensive.

4) It has always been weird to me that the church would outsource its youth program for boys.

What is the objective of a church youth program? I would argue it should be to grow faith, provide a support/fellowshipping structure, and teach leadership skills. The church can do that much more efficiently and effectively than using BSA. Why in the hell are we spending time teaching kids how to tie a clove hitch or use a compass?

I am thrilled with the change. Not because I hate scouting - I will always have good memories of my time in the organization. But because we can do so much better.