This conversation reminded me of when SU said that he'd rather watch ballet than a Ute football game.
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"Seriously, is there a bigger high on the whole face of the earth than eating a salad?"--SeattleUte
"The only Ute to cause even half the nationwide hysteria of Jimmermania was Ted Bundy."--TripletDaddy
This is a tough, NYC broad, a doctor who deals with bleeding organs, dying people and testicles on a regular basis without crying."--oxcoug
"I'm not impressed (and I'm even into choreography . . .)"--Donuthole
"I too was fortunate to leave with my same balls."--byu71
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostWhoa! WTH? Are you referring to me with that comment? I am not bitter in the least. I was laughing at how you have suddenly become such a cheerleader of the BSA and think it is cool and hip with a bright future. Have you enrolled your son in the BSA? Are you a volunteer leader? I didn't think so.
I have three sons and I spent 23 years of my life as a BSA leader of some sort. I enjoyed scouts because I love the outdoors and I enjoyed spending time with my boys and their friends in the mountains. I am also highly organized - in fact I wrote an Excel VBA tool (now on Google Sheets) for managing troop data that I shared with the public and it is now fairly widely used. I still maintain it. I was fortunate to be in a ward with lots of resources. I always had a big group of competent leaders, a healthy budget, and a fully-staffed scout committee. I never once had to manage a court of honor or a friends of scouting drive when I was scoutmaster. I told the bishop to just leave me there because I enjoyed it and I was good at it. He was smart enough to know when he had a good thing so he left me alone.
That being said, I have been arguing for years that while the BSA is a great organization, the church would be better off to drop scouting for the following reasons:
1) it is crazy to think that all wards in the church would be able to run a scouting program like we did. Very few wards have the leadership resources and activity levels we enjoyed.
2) It is crazy to think that every boy (and family) in the church is going to be interested in scouting. Some people like it, some don't. There is no good reason to try to get everyone to do it.
3) It is a very inefficient way to run a church youth program. Unless you have been a leader, you can't appreciate all the overhead it takes to run a successful program: uniforms, badges, camping equipment, supplies, paperwork for all badges and rank advancements, interviews for all badges and rank advancements, leadership training, etc etc etc. It is also expensive.
4) It has always been weird to me that the church would outsource its youth program for boys.
What is the objective of a church youth program? I would argue it should be to grow faith, provide a support/fellowshipping structure, and teach leadership skills. The church can do that much more efficiently and effectively than using BSA. Why in the hell are we spending time teaching kids how to tie a clove hitch or use a compass?
I am thrilled with the change. Not because I hate scouting - I will always have good memories of my time in the organization. But because we can do so much better."I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
What is the objective of a church youth program? I would argue it should be to grow faith, provide a support/fellowshipping structure, and teach leadership skills. The church can do that much more efficiently and effectively than using BSA. Why in the hell are we spending time teaching kids how to tie a clove hitch or use a compass?
Not everything is a problem that needs solving."Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied
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Originally posted by wuapinmon View PostThat right there is why youth programs in the Church suck, especially once you get outside the UT-AZ-ID corridor. Youth programs should be about giving kids a place to get together to do fun stuff with people like themselves in a space where they know that they won't be tempted to go against their beliefs. Any kind of objective beyond that is corporate. Leadership training and faith growing should be natural extensions of the fun stuff that happens, and not the primary, secondary, or even tertiary purposes for them.
Not everything is a problem that needs solving."Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."
Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.
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Originally posted by wuapinmon View PostThat right there is why youth programs in the Church suck, especially once you get outside the UT-AZ-ID corridor. Youth programs should be about giving kids a place to get together to do fun stuff with people like themselves in a space where they know that they won't be tempted to go against their beliefs. Any kind of objective beyond that is corporate. Leadership training and faith growing should be natural extensions of the fun stuff that happens, and not the primary, secondary, or even tertiary purposes for them.
Not everything is a problem that needs solving.
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Originally posted by wuapinmon View PostThat right there is why youth programs in the Church suck, especially once you get outside the UT-AZ-ID corridor. Youth programs should be about giving kids a place to get together to do fun stuff with people like themselves in a space where they know that they won't be tempted to go against their beliefs. Any kind of objective beyond that is corporate. Leadership training and faith growing should be natural extensions of the fun stuff that happens, and not the primary, secondary, or even tertiary purposes for them.
Not everything is a problem that needs solving."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostDisagree. Teenagers don't need to be treated like children and entertained 24/7. Leadership training is super easy. You get the kids to plan the activities (focus on what they are interested in) and to follow through with assignments, etc. Blending some faith promoting experiences and service projects in the mix is also easy. None of that requires a corporate approach or a rigid structure and it is easily adapted to local circumstances."If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
"I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
"Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!
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I remember being selected to order of the arrow and told go in fall there will be people you know there. Can,t talk anyway. I have football in fall. There are more important things than football. Appendectomy kept me from making either desciscion. I donlt think anyone in our troop went. Cheesy I think anyway. Didn,t they know I had football then.
For,er temple President could of done both but chose 4h and spent time in it over scouts so can,t sit in Eagles nest at Grandkids court of honors. He joined the church at U of I and got married instead of going on mission, served as Bishop, Stake President, Regional Representative, Area Seventy, and Mission President as well as Temple President and could of been better prepared for those callings if he went on mission.
We had me couple whose son was called butt wipe in cub scouts so went to temple and prayed about to and took son out of cub scouts. Bishop said it is the church's program Lord donlt tell yu to do that. Padre was in Stake Young Men's Presidency at time. They got tangled up with self appointed leader too. Divorced he realized he wasn,t do right things, she thinks her old so called branch president is devil now. Very controlling, interesting scout stories from people. I,m glad I am an Eagle but I guess there are other programs,
Church dean,t prohibit 4h, girls and boys clubs, Girl Scouts school activities it just doesn't, provide them. I don't know if you can use church buildings for non profit activities like 4h or demos.
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Originally posted by grapevine View PostI remember being selected to order of the arrow and told go in fall there will be people you know there. Can,t talk anyway. I have football in fall. There are more important things than football. Appendectomy kept me from making either desciscion. I donlt think anyone in our troop went. Cheesy I think anyway. Didn,t they know I had football then.
For,er temple President could of done both but chose 4h and spent time in it over scouts so can,t sit in Eagles nest at Grandkids court of honors. He joined the church at U of I and got married instead of going on mission, served as Bishop, Stake President, Regional Representative, Area Seventy, and Mission President as well as Temple President and could of been better prepared for those callings if he went on mission.
We had me couple whose son was called butt wipe in cub scouts so went to temple and prayed about to and took son out of cub scouts. Bishop said it is the church's program Lord donlt tell yu to do that. Padre was in Stake Young Men's Presidency at time. They got tangled up with self appointed leader too. Divorced he realized he wasn,t do right things, she thinks her old so called branch president is devil now. Very controlling, interesting scout stories from people. I,m glad I am an Eagle but I guess there are other programs,
Church dean,t prohibit 4h, girls and boys clubs, Girl Scouts school activities it just doesn't, provide them. I don't know if you can use church buildings for non profit activities like 4h or demos.Last edited by clackamascoug; 05-13-2018, 11:14 AM.
When poet puts pen to paper imagination breathes life, finding hearth and home.
-Mid Summer's Night Dream
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Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View PostDisagree. Teenagers don't need to be treated like children and entertained 24/7. Leadership training is super easy. You get the kids to plan the activities (focus on what they are interested in) and to follow through with assignments, etc. Blending some faith promoting experiences and service projects in the mix is also easy. None of that requires a corporate approach or a rigid structure and it is easily adapted to local circumstances.
Contrast that with our jobsworth leaders. I joined the Church when I was 17. About 6 months after my baptism, I had an interview with the bishop on a Wednesday night for something or other. I was playing basketball, and he came into the room, pulled me out, into his office, and proceeded to piously scold me about how it was disrespectful to not wear a shirt and tie to an interview with a priesthood leader.
Another time, the Relief Society decided to hold a meeting during youth activity night. We had something outside. When we were done, we came in and started playing basketball, and you would've thought that we had interrupted a Queen recording session for "Bohemian Rhapsody." The RS Presidency (Plural) came in screaming, "NO NO NO NO NO" at us. The bouncing balls were annoying them. There was no, "Hey guys, we're having a meeting."
I could go on and on. As a kid and as a leader. But, I'm not going to."Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied
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Originally posted by wuapinmon View PostHow much experience do you have with youth programs from Protestant churches? There are some youth programs that have kids showing up more than their parents because they are so engaging.
Contrast that with our jobsworth leaders. I joined the Church when I was 17. About 6 months after my baptism, I had an interview with the bishop on a Wednesday night for something or other. I was playing basketball, and he came into the room, pulled me out, into his office, and proceeded to piously scold me about how it was disrespectful to not wear a shirt and tie to an interview with a priesthood leader.
Another time, the Relief Society decided to hold a meeting during youth activity night. We had something outside. When we were done, we came in and started playing basketball, and you would've thought that we had interrupted a Queen recording session for "Bohemian Rhapsody." The RS Presidency (Plural) came in screaming, "NO NO NO NO NO" at us. The bouncing balls were annoying them. There was no, "Hey guys, we're having a meeting."
I could go on and on. As a kid and as a leader. But, I'm not going to.
I had a few nutty leaders as a kid, but most were great people just trying to do their best."There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
"It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
"Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster
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