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Thread: Mountain West Salvation Groundswell

  1. #331
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
    I think this is a decent idea. If Gonzaga leaves, we're effed. At that point, if we need to, we need be ready to drop independence in football and let our football program win us the best spot possible. Football rules the day in conference affiliation. So we should maximize that advantage for all sports.
    I don't understand why we're effed if Gonzaga leaves the WCC? It seems like BYU has a much better shot of getting an NCAA auto-bid each year if Gonzaga is gone.

    Outside of Men's basketball, the WCC is stronger, or as strong as, the MWC in most sports that the WCC sponsors. The WCC sports outside of Men's basketball don't generate much revenue or interest anyway so conference affiliation doesn't matter much for those sports. Plus the WCC geography comes with relatively minimal travel requirements for those non-revenue-generating sports.

    So, an easier path to the NCAA tournament each year for Men's basketball if Gonzaga leaves, and a "good enough" conference for the other sports that don't really matter, with relatively minimal travel requirements for those sports because they don't make any money. I don't see why BYU would be effed. What am I missing?

    I don't really love the WCC, I'm just not seeing the impending doom and gloom if Gonzaga were to bolt and BYU stayed put.

  2. #332
    The dude abides Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    I don't understand why we're effed if Gonzaga leaves the WCC? It seems like BYU has a much better shot of getting an NCAA auto-bid each year if Gonzaga is gone.

    Outside of Men's basketball, the WCC is stronger, or as strong as, the MWC in most sports that the WCC sponsors. The WCC sports outside of Men's basketball don't generate much revenue or interest anyway so conference affiliation doesn't matter much for those sports. Plus the WCC geography comes with relatively minimal travel requirements for those non-revenue-generating sports.

    So, an easier path to the NCAA tournament each year for Men's basketball if Gonzaga leaves, and a "good enough" conference for the other sports that don't really matter, with relatively minimal travel requirements for those sports because they don't make any money. I don't see why BYU would be effed. What am I missing?

    I don't really love the WCC, I'm just not seeing the impending doom and gloom if Gonzaga were to bolt and BYU stayed put.
    I agree.
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  3. #333
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    I don't understand why we're effed if Gonzaga leaves the WCC? It seems like BYU has a much better shot of getting an NCAA auto-bid each year if Gonzaga is gone.

    Outside of Men's basketball, the WCC is stronger, or as strong as, the MWC in most sports that the WCC sponsors. The WCC sports outside of Men's basketball don't generate much revenue or interest anyway so conference affiliation doesn't matter much for those sports. Plus the WCC geography comes with relatively minimal travel requirements for those non-revenue-generating sports.

    So, an easier path to the NCAA tournament each year for Men's basketball if Gonzaga leaves, and a "good enough" conference for the other sports that don't really matter, with relatively minimal travel requirements for those sports because they don't make any money. I don't see why BYU would be effed. What am I missing?

    I don't really love the WCC, I'm just not seeing the impending doom and gloom if Gonzaga were to bolt and BYU stayed put.
    It just spells further relevance for the important BYU sports. Football is increasingly irrelevant, and now the basketball conference is significantly weakened without Gonzaga. Yes, its easier to get to the NCAA (not that we've had great success in getting there at all recently), but probably means a lower seed since we won't have two guaranteed games against Gonzaga (which, lets face it, we have to beat at some point to get into the tournament at all at this point).

    We may not be "effed", but we are not at all better off.
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  4. #334

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    A Gonzagaless WCC, although easier to get an autobid, would be soooo bad.

    The WCC is already a terrible place. Honestly, it would just become a Big Sky like conference where just one team gets in as a 13-15 seed. Big whoop. That does not excite me. Just making the NCAA is not enough for me. The journey is just as important.

  5. #335
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    I don't understand why we're effed if Gonzaga leaves the WCC? It seems like BYU has a much better shot of getting an NCAA auto-bid each year if Gonzaga is gone.

    Outside of Men's basketball, the WCC is stronger, or as strong as, the MWC in most sports that the WCC sponsors. The WCC sports outside of Men's basketball don't generate much revenue or interest anyway so conference affiliation doesn't matter much for those sports. Plus the WCC geography comes with relatively minimal travel requirements for those non-revenue-generating sports.

    So, an easier path to the NCAA tournament each year for Men's basketball if Gonzaga leaves, and a "good enough" conference for the other sports that don't really matter, with relatively minimal travel requirements for those sports because they don't make any money. I don't see why BYU would be effed. What am I missing?

    I don't really love the WCC, I'm just not seeing the impending doom and gloom if Gonzaga were to bolt and BYU stayed put.
    I agree too, and this is why I don't understand Gonzaga's reasoning if it opts for the MWC. What is the upside for Gonzaga?
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  6. #336
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LiveCoug View Post
    A Gonzagaless WCC, although easier to get an autobid, would be soooo bad.

    The WCC is already a terrible place. Honestly, it would just become a Big Sky like conference where just one team gets in as a 13-15 seed. Big whoop. That does not excite me. Just making the NCAA is not enough for me. The journey is just as important.
    I agree


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  7. #337

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    Quote Originally Posted by jay santos View Post
    That's harsh. But wouldn't surprise me. This is a time we need a strong AD. I thought Holmoe was weak initially. But then there's been times I thought he was OK. Don't really know how to evaluate him.
    I don't think I meant it harshly. BYU employs this kind of approach in lot of areas. For example, heavily subsidized tuition allows them to better control to create the campus environment they want. I tend to think that approach is an important part of why I like BYU as an environment. It's not clear to be me why BYU would want to be revenue maximizing with respect to athletics. Team performance maximization for BYU has more binding constraints than other institutions. Or in other words, I think BYU has more variables in their weighting function than most universities, and I think they should (I would include variables like the ability to be a rerun of chariots of fire or maintaining a thicker veneer of amateurism or keeping the probability of embarrassment or conflict down the road low or the ability to package content through a LDS lens or even the notion that it's bad for the long term health of a university to let athletics be the tail that wags the dog (U. Chicago being the extreme example of avoiding this)). I suspect the variables and weights for the powers that be are different than the weights I would use but I don't disagree with the approach. Given that, BYU needs/wants more control
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  8. #338
    Where's Wallace? Surfah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    I don't understand why we're effed if Gonzaga leaves the WCC? It seems like BYU has a much better shot of getting an NCAA auto-bid each year if Gonzaga is gone.

    Outside of Men's basketball, the WCC is stronger, or as strong as, the MWC in most sports that the WCC sponsors. The WCC sports outside of Men's basketball don't generate much revenue or interest anyway so conference affiliation doesn't matter much for those sports. Plus the WCC geography comes with relatively minimal travel requirements for those non-revenue-generating sports.

    So, an easier path to the NCAA tournament each year for Men's basketball if Gonzaga leaves, and a "good enough" conference for the other sports that don't really matter, with relatively minimal travel requirements for those sports because they don't make any money. I don't see why BYU would be effed. What am I missing?

    I don't really love the WCC, I'm just not seeing the impending doom and gloom if Gonzaga were to bolt and BYU stayed put.
    I don't necessarily agree that it will be easier. Without Gonzaga, the WCC will only be a single bid league requiring BYU to win the conference tournament every year to dance and we haven't been a very good conference tournament team for as long as I can remember.
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  9. #339
    Senior Member BigFatMeanie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfah View Post
    I don't necessarily agree that it will be easier. Without Gonzaga, the WCC will only be a single bid league requiring BYU to win the conference tournament every year to dance and we haven't been a very good conference tournament team for as long as I can remember.
    Gonzaga has won the WCC tournament 16 out of the last 20 years. Years when Gonzaga didn't in the tourney are marked with an asterisk and the school that won. Gonzaga has made the NCAA tourney every single year out of the last 20.

    1999 -
    2000 - Pepperdine
    2001 -
    2002 - Pepperdine
    2003 - San Diego*
    2004 -
    2005 - St. Mary's
    2006 -
    2007 -
    2008 - San Diego*, St. Mary's
    2009 -
    2010 - St. Mary's*
    2011 -
    2012 - St. Mary's*, BYU
    2013 - St. Mary's
    2014 - BYU
    2015 - BYU
    2016 -
    2017 - St. Mary's
    2018 -

    The WCC has been a 3-bid league 2 out of the last 20 years
    The WCC has been a 2-bid league 9 out of the last 20 years
    The WCC has been a 1-bid league 9 out of the last 20 years

    My conclusion is that even with Gonzaga the WCC is already a single-bid league 50% of the years, requiring BYU to win the conference tournament those years to dance.

    I can understand LiveCoug's argument about the journey being as important as the destination. I don't necessarily agree with it but it's at least rational. If people don't think removing the team that has won 80% of the league's auto-bids over the last 20 years gives the remaining teams, and especially the remaining teams in the top half of the league, an easier path to the tournament, then those people view math and probability very differently from me.

  10. #340

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Gonzaga has won the WCC tournament 16 out of the last 20 years. Years when Gonzaga didn't in the tourney are marked with an asterisk and the school that won. Gonzaga has made the NCAA tourney every single year out of the last 20.

    1999 -
    2000 - Pepperdine
    2001 -
    2002 - Pepperdine
    2003 - San Diego*
    2004 -
    2005 - St. Mary's
    2006 -
    2007 -
    2008 - San Diego*, St. Mary's
    2009 -
    2010 - St. Mary's*
    2011 -
    2012 - St. Mary's*, BYU
    2013 - St. Mary's
    2014 - BYU
    2015 - BYU
    2016 -
    2017 - St. Mary's
    2018 -

    The WCC has been a 3-bid league 2 out of the last 20 years
    The WCC has been a 2-bid league 9 out of the last 20 years
    The WCC has been a 1-bid league 9 out of the last 20 years

    My conclusion is that even with Gonzaga the WCC is already a single-bid league 50% of the years, requiring BYU to win the conference tournament those years to dance.

    I can understand LiveCoug's argument about the journey being as important as the destination. I don't necessarily agree with it but it's at least rational. If people don't think removing the team that has won 80% of the league's auto-bids over the last 20 years gives the remaining teams, and especially the remaining teams in the top half of the league, an easier path to the tournament, then those people view math and probability very differently from me.
    I think you're right in that our chances to make the tournament don't change much with Gonzaga leaving. With them, we made it about half the time. Without them, during the same time period, we probably make it about half the time, maybe slightly more even.

    BUT, there is more to a college basketball program and being a college basketball fan than whether or not we make the tournament. Being in the WCC already sucks. At least for me as a fan. Being in the WCC without Gonzaga would be a lot worse. These things have huge long term effect as well. Fan interest, recruiting ability, financial resources, etc.

  11. #341
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    I don't understand why we're effed if Gonzaga leaves the WCC? It seems like BYU has a much better shot of getting an NCAA auto-bid each year if Gonzaga is gone.

    Outside of Men's basketball, the WCC is stronger, or as strong as, the MWC in most sports that the WCC sponsors. The WCC sports outside of Men's basketball don't generate much revenue or interest anyway so conference affiliation doesn't matter much for those sports. Plus the WCC geography comes with relatively minimal travel requirements for those non-revenue-generating sports.

    So, an easier path to the NCAA tournament each year for Men's basketball if Gonzaga leaves, and a "good enough" conference for the other sports that don't really matter, with relatively minimal travel requirements for those sports because they don't make any money. I don't see why BYU would be effed. What am I missing?

    I don't really love the WCC, I'm just not seeing the impending doom and gloom if Gonzaga were to bolt and BYU stayed put.
    I'm pretty sure the administration will stick with the status quo for at least a couple of years if/when Gonzaga leaves. Remember, they didn't leave the MWC to join up with Gonzaga. They left for football independence and were relieved the WCC was there when their WAC plan fell through. That's right - the plan was to join the WAC for basketball + other non-football sports, with such power teams as Idaho and San Jose State and nobody as consistently good as Gonzaga had been to that point.

    Speaking of Gonzaga, at the time of BYU joining the WCC, Gonzaga had been a very consistent tournament presence, typically making it into the round of 32 with occasional Sweet 16s. It's only been since BYU joined the league that Gonzaga has taken another step up into being a regular presence in the top 10.

    So will the administration abandon the WCC if Gonzaga leaves? Certainly not right away. Football is king, and they just spent a bunch of money on new coaching. I expect they want to see if football can be turned around with the coaching staff as presently constituted. If football continues to flounder, then I could see the administration buckling and throwing in the towel on independence, resulting in going back to the MWC.
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  12. #342
    One man.....one pie Moliere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigFatMeanie View Post
    Gonzaga has won the WCC tournament 16 out of the last 20 years. Years when Gonzaga didn't in the tourney are marked with an asterisk and the school that won. Gonzaga has made the NCAA tourney every single year out of the last 20.

    1999 -
    2000 - Pepperdine
    2001 -
    2002 - Pepperdine
    2003 - San Diego*
    2004 -
    2005 - St. Mary's
    2006 -
    2007 -
    2008 - San Diego*, St. Mary's
    2009 -
    2010 - St. Mary's*
    2011 -
    2012 - St. Mary's*, BYU
    2013 - St. Mary's
    2014 - BYU
    2015 - BYU
    2016 -
    2017 - St. Mary's
    2018 -

    The WCC has been a 3-bid league 2 out of the last 20 years
    The WCC has been a 2-bid league 9 out of the last 20 years
    The WCC has been a 1-bid league 9 out of the last 20 years

    My conclusion is that even with Gonzaga the WCC is already a single-bid league 50% of the years, requiring BYU to win the conference tournament those years to dance.

    I can understand LiveCoug's argument about the journey being as important as the destination. I don't necessarily agree with it but it's at least rational. If people don't think removing the team that has won 80% of the league's auto-bids over the last 20 years gives the remaining teams, and especially the remaining teams in the top half of the league, an easier path to the tournament, then those people view math and probability very differently from me.
    If making the tourney is the only goal, we’d be better off in the WAC or Big Sky. We’d dominate those tournaments and go every year.


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  13. #343

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moliere View Post
    If making the tourney is the only goal, we’d be better off in the WAC or Big Sky. We’d dominate those tournaments and go every year.


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    yep just like UNLV when they were in the Big West.
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  14. #344

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surfah View Post
    I don't necessarily agree that it will be easier. Without Gonzaga, the WCC will only be a single bid league requiring BYU to win the conference tournament every year to dance and we haven't been a very good conference tournament team for as long as I can remember.
    I don't know that the problem has necessarily been the magic of winning in a tournament as much as not being able to get past UNLV on their home floor in the MWC or Gonzaga in the WCC. Granted, we've been eliminated a few times by other teams, but those two have been the main obstacles.

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