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Thread: Bigfoot: I want to believe

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    Ragnar Lodbrok Descendant SoCalCoug's Avatar
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    Default Bigfoot: I want to believe

    I stirred things up over on CB a week or so ago with a post about Bigfoot. I got comments from some who like to consider the possibility that a population of large hominids exists that has not been officially "discovered" and recognized by the scientific community. I also got responses from the realists and skeptics who gave me the benefit of the doubt that I was trolling.

    Here's where I stand on the issue:

    I guess I am not what people would describe as a skeptic. I also do not feel I am gullible. I accept the possibility that there are things beyond my personal experience that exist or are true.

    On the Bigfoot issue, there are thousands of eyewitness reports out there. There are videos and pictures, some of which are obviously faked, some of which are likely faked, and some of which are really difficult to explain away as faked.

    There are kooks, some of whom are very visible and publicized, who are involved in Bigfoot "research"; there are some legitimate scientists and other earnest people who are also involved in Bigfoot research.

    In the face of eyewitness and other circumstantial evidence, I tend to keep my mind open to the possibility that there is something unexplained by our current knowledge.

    I don't believe in the Loch Ness Monster (I think the famous photo is faked, and there isn't enough evidence otherwise to suggest to me it's anything but stories and fraud). I think "chupacabra" is coyotes with mange.

    Of the famous cryptids, Bigfoot or Sasquatch stands apart from all the others in the scope of evidence, and in the history with aboriginal people.

    I have certainly not shut the door on the possibility of a large, "undiscovered" hominid, but I have also not concluded that they truly exist.

    It's a fun exercise for me to look at the various Bigfoot websites and keep tabs on the Bigfoot community (I don't consider myself part of it, though). Recently I've been looking at the Patterson video and a lot of commentary about it (it's the famous one everyone's already seen), to see if I can conclusively convince myself that it was faked (i.e., a guy in a Bigfoot suit). The jury's still out on that for me.

    Recent months have been as active as I've ever seen on the Bigfoot sites. The reasons are threefold:

    1. There have been some very interesting photos and videos come to light recently, it seems to me in a much more frequent rate than in the past. It seems like all of a sudden, there are a bunch of new things to look at that aren't easily dismissed as fake. Let me share an example. This photo was posted for the first time ever, two months ago:



    This is alleged to be from an improvised trail cam some guy set up to catch images of something that's been coming on his property. He sent one photo to someone with a Bigfoot site, who he heard on a radio show. He made her sit on it (allegedly) for four years because he was reluctant to let his identity be public because he doesn't want to deal with the ridicule and scorn that a lot of Bigfoot believers suffer. She finally published the photo, and it has caused a mini uproar. It's certainly the clearest alleged Bigfoot photo ever, and I don't think it can be mistaken for another animal. It's either what it purports to be, or it's a really good fake. And I'm talking a fake that would cost thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars to make.

    2. A man named Adrian Erickson has been working on a Bigfoot documentary since 2005. Reportedly, he has gathered (bought up) quite a number of unreleased Bigfoot videos and pictures that will be part of the documentary. It is supposedly ready, but he is apparently waiting to release it at the same time as #3.

    3. An animal geneticist, Dr. Melba Ketchum, has according to numerous reports, been working on a paper in which she has analyzed up to 200 tissue, blood and hair samples. It is on the verge of publication, and her conduct strongly suggests that she has concluded that DNA testing of multiple samples has revealed a hominid that has not yet been scientifically described. I've seen "leaked" information that up to 100 samples have come back as this unknown hominid. I've also seen "leaked" information that this unknown hominid is as much as 2/3 closer to human DNA than chimpanzees. She also claims to have her own unreleased videos and photos that will be released either as part of this paper, or shortly thereafter. She has not revealed the publication, but she has stated it's in a legitimate, peer-reviewed publication.

    She won't (cannot) reveal any information about the paper, due to an embargo. There has been speculation that it would be published on a Thursday or Friday before May 1. There is, indeed, a paper that is subject to press embargo, that is on the subject of "genetics" that is scheduled to have the embargo lifted less than a half hour from now. Whether or not it's hers is pure speculation, but all indications are that it will be published sometime within the next month (although I've seen something saying it will be October, but she's specifically denied that, saying it's not true).

    If this is her paper, there's going to be a lot of stuff going down today and tomorrow on the Bigfoot front. And that will be fun. Regardless of whether it's conclusively proved, or whether it's another false alarm.

    Finally, I find it very interesting how many people around her believe that an angel gave gold plates to a young boy who translated them as a book of scripture, but they refuse to acknowledge anything else that falls under the category of paranormal. It's kind of a funny contradiction to me.
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    功 流感 战斗机 Uncle Ted's Avatar
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    Bigfoot is Cain:

    Patten is reportedly the source of a story which has become a part of Mormon folklore. As related by Abraham O. Smoot after Patten's death, Patten says he encountered a very tall, hairy, dark-skinned man in Paris, Tennessee who said that he was Cain. The account states that Cain, the son of Adam from the Bible, had earnestly sought death but was denied it, and that his mission was to destroy the souls of men. The recollection of Patten's story is quoted in Spencer W. Kimball's The Miracle of Forgiveness, a popular book within the LDS Church. In the 1980s, Patten's story was used by some Latter-day Saints to explain Bigfoot sightings in South Weber, Utah.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_W._Patten

    You may want to pick up the following book...

    [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Between-Pulpit-Pew-Supernatural-Folklore/dp/0874218381/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1335455787&sr=8-1"]Amazon.com: Between Pulpit and Pew: The Supernatural World in Mormon History and Folklore (9780874218381): W. Paul Reeve, Michael Scott Van Wagenen: [email protected]@[email protected]@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/[email protected]@[email protected]@41HNCE74HkL[/ame]
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    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
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    You are killing me, SoCal.
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    Ragnar Lodbrok Descendant SoCalCoug's Avatar
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    Embargo's over. That wasn't her paper, so this is going to drag out for a while.
    If we disagree on something, it's because you're wrong.

    "Somebody needs to kill my trial attorney." — Last words of George Harris, executed in Missouri on Sept. 13, 2000.

    "Nothing is too good to be true, nothing is too good to last, nothing is too wonderful to happen." - Florence Scoville Shinn

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    Members Only Dwight Schr-ute's Avatar
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    As a wildlife biologist, I have a strange fascination with this stuff as well. Not so far as visiting websites and following the updates. But I've wandered enough woodland in my life to be able to acknowledge the possibility of some unexplained species wandering the remote parts of the world.

    Can you imagine how a discovery would play out? It just blows my mind imagining the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service having to consider listing the Sasquatch on the ESA and all of the implications of that. Zoos. Captive breeding programs. Despite being 99% genetically related to chimpanzee's, looking at one in a zoo habitat doesn't seem especially strange to me, since we've been conditioned to seeing them in there. I can imagine having a much different reaction looking up and making eye contact with a Sasquatch in similar conditions.

    Sign me up for the updates!

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    I can never keep track of which Cuffers drink alcohol and which ones don't. For some reason I thought SoCalCoug was a teetotaler.
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    RIP CUF DU Ute's Avatar
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    I want to believe. But if there are creatures like this roaming the Pacific Northwest, why haven't any of them run across HFNW and tried to mate with him? That's where my belief wanes.
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    Ragnar Lodbrok Descendant SoCalCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    You are killing me, SoCal.
    Hey, I think this is do or die time for the Bigfoot legend. I think it would be just as fun to see the trainwreck that follows, if this paper turns out to be not as advertised.

    I love things that mess with people's paradigm. This has the potential to upend a lot of people's paradigm, on one side of the issue or the other.

    I am not convinced yet that Dr. Ketchum isn't a kook. That's why it's very interesting to me that she appears to have some scientific credentials, and that she's claiming she is publishing a paper on Bigfoot DNA in a respected, peer-reviewed journal.

    Either way, this thing is going to be fun.

    Yes, I'd love for someone to turn up a real Sasquatch body, or to prove to a reasonable scientific certainty that there are Sasquatches. That would be totally cool. But it doesn't mean I've bought wholesale into the Bigfoot thing. I need some pretty convincing evidence. This lady says she has it. So, I'm anxiously waiting for it.

    I still think that picture I posted is pretty cool. Frustratingly uncertain, but it's certainly not a known animal. Therefore, it's either something heretofore unknown, or it's a really good fake. And I mean REALLY good fake.
    If we disagree on something, it's because you're wrong.

    "Somebody needs to kill my trial attorney." — Last words of George Harris, executed in Missouri on Sept. 13, 2000.

    "Nothing is too good to be true, nothing is too good to last, nothing is too wonderful to happen." - Florence Scoville Shinn

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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    But Bigfoot isn't paranormal. That's the problem. It isnt some otherworldly phenomenon. It is supposed to be a huge ape but it never leaves a carcass and never gets hit by a car and so forth. I would. E excited if there was actual evidence but for now most of what I have seen is a bobo recreation and that doesn't do it for me.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    WARNING: The following video contains language that may be considered offensive to some viewers.
    [YOUTUBE]jdsYEsM1Onc[/YOUTUBE]

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalCoug View Post
    I still think that picture I posted is pretty cool. Frustratingly uncertain, but it's certainly not a known animal. Therefore, it's either something heretofore unknown, or it's a really good fake. And I mean REALLY good fake.
    One other option is that is isn't a good fake at all but a bad costume.

    Sorry to mess with your paradigm!
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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    BTW, what m,akes you tihk that photo would be so hard to fake? Or so expensive? It doesnt look that way to me.

    ANd why is there always some odd ciurcumstance attached to so much of the eivdence?

    "Here is a great photo! Sorry, nop point in going to look for corrsponding footprints or hair on trees etc. becasue it has been YEARS since it was taken, but man it sure looks cool!"
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Ragnar Lodbrok Descendant SoCalCoug's Avatar
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    By the way, Dr. Jeffrey Meldrum at Idaho State University is very involved in the Bigfoot community. Does anyone have any knowledge whether he's a kook, or is he legitimate?
    If we disagree on something, it's because you're wrong.

    "Somebody needs to kill my trial attorney." — Last words of George Harris, executed in Missouri on Sept. 13, 2000.

    "Nothing is too good to be true, nothing is too good to last, nothing is too wonderful to happen." - Florence Scoville Shinn

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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalCoug View Post
    By the way, Dr. Jeffrey Meldrum at Idaho State University is very involved in the Bigfoot community. Does anyone have any knowledge whether he's a kook, or is he legitimate?
    I have seen himn talking to Bobo and Moneymaker on TV. A nice guy, it seems, but a bit of a kook, IMO.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    This is a funny troll. Much more creative than some of Sooner's stuff. Nice job, SoCal!
    Last edited by smokymountainrain; 04-26-2012 at 10:23 AM.

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    Ragnar Lodbrok Descendant SoCalCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    BTW, what m,akes you tihk that photo would be so hard to fake? Or so expensive? It doesnt look that way to me.

    ANd why is there always some odd ciurcumstance attached to so much of the eivdence?

    "Here is a great photo! Sorry, nop point in going to look for corrsponding footprints or hair on trees etc. becasue it has been YEARS since it was taken, but man it sure looks cool!"
    There was some thought that the picture was similar to a Bigfoot costume that was used in a movie recently produced. Someone went so far as to contact the movie's director (or producer) and discuss it with him. He confirmed first, that it was not his suit (there had been speculation that one of the suits from the movie was what was shown in the picture). He also said that although he can't disclose how much his costume cost, he did say you could buy a mid-priced car for it.

    If it's fake, my best guess would be it's a close-up shot from a museum model - but nobody's come up with the original yet, and they've been able to do so pretty readily in the past.
    If we disagree on something, it's because you're wrong.

    "Somebody needs to kill my trial attorney." — Last words of George Harris, executed in Missouri on Sept. 13, 2000.

    "Nothing is too good to be true, nothing is too good to last, nothing is too wonderful to happen." - Florence Scoville Shinn

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    Bigfeet in the PNW would be great for business, so I believe!
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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    But Bigfoot isn't paranormal. That's the problem. It isnt some otherworldly phenomenon. It is supposed to be a huge ape but it never leaves a carcass and never gets hit by a car and so forth. I would. E excited if there was actual evidence but for now most of what I have seen is a bobo recreation and that doesn't do it for me.
    And yet people believe very strongly that they have had encounters with them. I am fascinated by people who have very strong beliefs in things like this, UFOs, etc. Reason and evidence only enter into the equation for many of them to the extent they confirm what is already believed. When it doesn't they fall back on their own subjective experience and arguments about what is knowable. It is virtually indistinguishable from a religious impulse.

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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    And yet people believe very strongly that they have had encounters with them. I am fascinated by people who have very strong beliefs in things like this, UFOs, etc. Reason and evidence only enter into the equation for many of them to the extent they confirm what is already believed. When it doesn't they fall back on their own subjective experience and arguments about what is knowable. It is virtually indistinguishable from a religious impulse.
    No, it is completely distingusihabkle from a religious impulse in terms of the science. It is indistinguishable as it may be observed in someone like Bobo.

    I have read a couple of articles that talk about Bigfoots (bigfeet?) being a manifestation of the "other", of the dark, of the a part of our natures that have always feared the monster out there. If we dont have it, we invent it. IOW, it is a psychological phenomenon as it is believed. this is similar to the religious impulse, as you put it. But whether it actually exists is a different issue.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by creekster View Post
    No, it is completely distingusihabkle from a religious impulse in terms of the science. It is indistinguishable as it may be observed in someone like Bobo.

    I have read a couple of articles that talk about Bigfoots (bigfeet?) being a manifestation of the "other", of the dark, of the a part of our natures that have always feared the monster out there. If we dont have it, we invent it. IOW, it is a psychological phenomenon as it is believed. this is similar to the religious impulse, as you put it. But whether it actually exists is a different issue.
    I agree with all but the first sentence. But you are right. I was, as you say, talking about "as observed," that is, how people experience it. I would be interested to hear you flesh out that first sentence however. Distinguishable how?

    As for the second part, some have argued that the ubiquitous idea of a devil figure is a manifestation of this. I also think there is something even more basic to the idea of boogeymen than externalizing the bad in ourselves (though I definitely think that is part of it). That something more, IMO, is just that we are adapted to be at least a little jumpy about that we can't immediately explain. It is easy to imagine why a skittish creature might have a better chance of passing on its genetic material than one that is not.

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    Local Character clackamascoug's Avatar
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    I choose to stand by SoCalCoug, even if he has a bit of a skunk ape odor on the board today.

    Hundreds of years, and thousands of reports are worthy respect and contemplation. It's not a huge step for me to consider that they are real, when reports of this type of animal come in from all around the world in a regular basis. In addition, it's not just a regional USA thing, there are sightings in every single state, every single year. If you're a Google Earth Fan, you can download a BFRO module, and see tags where sightings have taken place and read the report associated with the sighting. When you see more tags than you can read, you might also consider that maybe there is more to this than you realized.
    Last edited by clackamascoug; 04-26-2012 at 11:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    I choose to stand by SoCalCoug, even if he has a bit of a skunk ape odor on the board today.

    Hundreds of years, and thousands of reports are worthy respect and contemplation. It's not a huge step for me to consider that they are real, when reports of this type of animal come in from all around the world in a regular basis. In addition, it's just a regional USA thing, there are sightings in every single state, every single year. If you're a Google Earth Fan, you can download a BFRO module, and see tags where sightings have taken place and read the report associated with the sighting. When you see more tags than you can read, you might also consider that maybe there is more to this than you realized.
    I think most people are willing to consider that it is possible. It's just that most of us don't think we have seen evidence that would lead is to say that it is probable or even just as likely as not.

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    Explosivo Commando's Avatar
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    I know the Sasquatch legend's real!

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    If you come across Sasquatch in the woods, just don't go messin' with him.

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    Living in the Past ... FMCoug's Avatar
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    I have no idea if there is a BigFoot or not. However, it seems there is a tried and true tradition going back hundreds or even thousands of years of the "learned" who scoff at the whack jobs being disproven when new evidence comes to light.
    "It's true that everything happens for a reason. Just remember that sometimes that reason is that you did something really, really, stupid."

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    sweet triple TripletDaddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paperback Writer View Post
    If you come across Sasquatch in the woods, just don't go messin' with him.

    That's a really good fake. And I mean REALLY good fake.
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    It is NOT a monkey! creekster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clackamascoug View Post
    In addition, it's just a regional USA thing, there are sightings in every single state, every single year.
    Ironically, this is one of the reasons why I think it is unlikely.
    PLesa excuse the tpyos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FMCoug View Post
    I have no idea if there is a BigFoot or not. However, it seems there is a tried and true tradition going back hundreds or even thousands of years of the "learned" who scoff at the whack jobs being disproven when new evidence comes to light.
    Hopefully humanity is getting more humble about what it says is not possible while at that same time becoming better and better at saying what is probable.

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    Ragnar Lodbrok Descendant SoCalCoug's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripletDaddy View Post
    That's a really good fake. And I mean REALLY good fake.
    Yep. And they probably paid at least $30,000 for the costume they use in the commercials.

    Either the Hollywood people are doing the hoaxing, or some of the hoaxers have a bunch of money lying around to spend on bigfoot costumes.
    If we disagree on something, it's because you're wrong.

    "Somebody needs to kill my trial attorney." — Last words of George Harris, executed in Missouri on Sept. 13, 2000.

    "Nothing is too good to be true, nothing is too good to last, nothing is too wonderful to happen." - Florence Scoville Shinn

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    Quote Originally Posted by UtahDan View Post
    And yet people believe very strongly that they have had encounters with them. I am fascinated by people who have very strong beliefs in things like this, UFOs, etc. Reason and evidence only enter into the equation for many of them to the extent they confirm what is already believed. When it doesn't they fall back on their own subjective experience and arguments about what is knowable. It is virtually indistinguishable from a religious impulse.
    "We do not know how many inhabited worlds there are, or where they are. But certainly we are not alone."
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    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

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