Page 10 of 11 FirstFirst ... 891011 LastLast
Results 271 to 300 of 316

Thread: MEP, BRM, and Racism

  1. #271
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    A hard look at ourselves, as a nation, is something that is long overdue. I'm far less worried right now about the flawed people we choose to honor than I am the folks we are systematically brutalizing. The power structure makes those monuments (e.g. statues of Jefferson or Washington) easy targets for rage. Real change must come from within our collective hearts and we have to vote like we mean it, and stop electing pandering populists to office, at all levels.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  2. #272
    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    51,711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    A hard look at ourselves, as a nation, is something that is long overdue. I'm far less worried right now about the flawed people we choose to honor than I am the folks we are systematically brutalizing. The power structure makes those monuments (e.g. statues of Jefferson or Washington) easy targets for rage. Real change must come from within our collective hearts and we have to vote like we mean it, and stop electing pandering populists to office, at all levels.
    Would be nice if we could spend more time talking about overhauling our criminal justice system, killing the war on drugs, abolishing manadatory minimum sentencing, etc. and less time renaming master bedrooms and syrup bottles.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  3. #273
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    Would be nice if we could spend more time talking about overhauling our criminal justice system, killing the war on drugs, abolishing manadatory minimum sentencing, etc. and less time renaming master bedrooms and syrup bottles.
    But, the will to change even the small stuff has to come from somewhere, and first steps can be primers for larger change. Some view them as pandering or platitudes or attempts to distract. I agree that they can be all of those things and still have value. But, they aren't all that important to me, per se. The larger changes, including all of the ones you mentioned, are what motivate me to agitate for change, writing my Representatives, attending protests and marches, peppering social media with attempts to provoke discussion (my facebook can get messy sometimes), and using the classroom dialectic to make people talk to each other about issues in meaningful ways where they have to back up their comments and thoughts with evidence. I'm teaching an a class on Afro-Hispanic Literature and Culture this fall (including US Latinos), and we're reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao; I'm trying to engineer assignments that will force students to examine their own ideas of what race in America means.

    But, getting rid of minstrel product images can be a first step. So, while it's not important to some, it can be important to moving the needle for some.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  4. #274
    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    51,711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    But, the will to change even the small stuff has to come from somewhere, and first steps can be primers for larger change. Some view them as pandering or platitudes or attempts to distract. I agree that they can be all of those things and still have value. But, they aren't all that important to me, per se. The larger changes, including all of the ones you mentioned, are what motivate me to agitate for change, writing my Representatives, attending protests and marches, peppering social media with attempts to provoke discussion (my facebook can get messy sometimes), and using the classroom dialectic to make people talk to each other about issues in meaningful ways where they have to back up their comments and thoughts with evidence. I'm teaching an a class on Afro-Hispanic Literature and Culture this fall (including US Latinos), and we're reading The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao; I'm trying to engineer assignments that will force students to examine their own ideas of what race in America means.

    But, getting rid of minstrel product images can be a first step. So, while it's not important to some, it can be important to moving the needle for some.
    I couldn't care less about Aunt Jemima. It is just depressing that so much of our national conversation right now is focused on these cosmetic things. I fear we are wasting capital and squandering a moment.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  5. #275
    功 流感 战斗机 Uncle Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Where ∑ ★ = 1
    Posts
    22,820

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I couldn't care less about Aunt Jemima. It is just depressing that so much of our national conversation right now is focused on these cosmetic things. I fear we are wasting capital and squandering a moment.
    What?!?

    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  6. #276
    Social Distance Warrior swampfrog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I couldn't care less about Aunt Jemima. It is just depressing that so much of our national conversation right now is focused on these cosmetic things. I fear we are wasting capital and squandering a moment.

  7. #277
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    The 208
    Posts
    12,438

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Yip. I originally clicked to reply to Jeff with something like "there are too many people who don't want to fix the underlying problems to get anything more than cosmetic change" before I deleted it, not wanting to sound conspiratorial.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  8. #278
    Social Distance Warrior swampfrog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Yip. I originally clicked to reply to Jeff with something like "there are too many people who don't want to fix the underlying problems to get anything more than cosmetic change" before I deleted it, not wanting to sound conspiratorial.
    Heh. Pretty sure the replies I select 'Cancel' on outnumber the ones I actually post.

  9. #279
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
    I fear we are wasting capital and squandering a moment.
    I can't imagine the GOP giving an inch right now with Darth McConnell in charge of the Senate. That son-of-a-bitch is a GOP Keyser Soze, willing to kill the country to stay in power.

    The cops aren't going to back reform because giving up power isn't their thing. The Wall Street Journal has been salivating in their op-eds about busting up a powerful labor union's influence, so cops are rightly worried, all around, about what that means for them.

    Here are some of my ideas:

    1. National standards for what it takes to be a law-enforcement officer. College education from an accredited, not-for-profit institution (the field isn't important; I don't buy that criminology makes for a better cop), psych profile, and a demonstrated willingness to be a help to the citizenry (no criminal convictions; no history of racism). Then, a national police academy (with competitive standards) with agencies barred from receiving federal funding if they don't require NPA graduation for the job.

    2. National Ombudsman (elected directly by the people as a fourth branch of the government) to review all instances of police use of deadly force. This is a much larger idea, with a NOOTUS tasked with this, with oversight of ALL elections--including certifying the results and ballot administration of national offices (except the NOOTUS)--negotiating purchases for all government agencies, watchdogging, inspectors general, the GAO/OMB, Congressional district approval, and probably some other stuff that also shouldn't be political. This turns the government into a four-branch system, which does exist in other countries (like Costa Rica).

    3. Traffic enforcement should not be done by armed agents of the state . It can be done via unarmed officers who pull over those willing to be pulled over. If someone refuses to stop, they can get a court summons to explain themselves, and if they don't show up for their court date, then armed agents can get involved along with massive fines. Primary stops should be for giving warnings for broken or inoperable equipment (the first time, afterwards, hefty fines), child endangerment, and in the case of dangerous operation of a vehicle (e.g. speeding) then a citation. Those stopped for DUI, if they'll stop, should be allowed to sleep it off in a drunk tank. If they won't stop, then, fleeing from the police who suspect you of drinking should be like refusing a breathalyzer. There should be clear-cut criteria for suspicion of DUI that must be met on camera before attempting a stop, and if the person then flees, we leave it up to the court system. The presumption of innocence of DUI should not exist, if you choose to flee. If there is a worry that someone is a clear and present danger to others, then stopping them with force should be a last resort. DUI checkpoints, which largely don't catch drunk drivers, should end forevermore. A roadblock should only happen when a violent murderer or a kidnapping has occurred. All immigration checkpoint stops should cease, immediately, other than at the physical border. TSA agents should be subject to the same standards as any law enforcement officer. Parking enforcement can be handled by civilian employees, with massive penalties for anyone who threatens them. Traffic enforcement cops should not worry about apprehension of wanted suspects/individuals with warrants. If a warrant comes back on someone who stops, then the officer should let the armed agents know that they stopped the person, but the suspect should be asked to turn themselves in, but let go. We need to move past the idea that traffic enforcement needs police powers.

    4. All police, should from henceforth be STATE police or NATIONAL police, and not under solely the 18,000 various agencies currently operating policing powers in the USA. There are too many jurisdictions with pitiful budgets and resources to continue town or county sheriffs offices. Each citizen should be able to rely on the fact that each LEO with whom they interact is in the employ of the STATE, with commensurate resources and benefits (and training requirements). Sheriffs can still be elected, but, something needs to change, and local jurisdictions (even major cities) cannot be expected to remove politics from their mission.

    5. We need different classes of police officers. I think we could break them down as follows:

    A. Civil sheriffs, responsible for code enforcement, keeping order at public events, evictions, serving summons, and taking reports of non-violent crime.B. Criminal sheriffs, responsible for preventing and investigating felony property and violent crimes.
    C. Marshals charged with apprehension of suspects, serving of warrants on private property, transporting violent criminals in custody, and violent crisis situations (e.g. domestic violence). There would be no pursuits of suspects anymore, except in the rarest of circumstances (e.g. Amber Alerts). Since almost all bail would be people released on their own recognizance, they would also have to go after those who didn't respect their criminal court dates.
    D. Social workers, trained in helping deescalate situations, including custody disputes, suicide watches, dealing with complaints against special needs individuals, and other tasks where only a select few need be armed. This would include probation officers who would no longer have to worry about drug offenders, since all habit-forming drugs would now be legal.
    E. Prison officers, highly trained to work in new prisons where only the most violent and irredeemably evil would be held. Murderers, child abusers, rapists, felony batterers, or those who could not otherwise be held in jails. Jails, conceivably, would be used for non-violent offenders who nonetheless needed short-term incarceration for "correction." Our system needs to refocus on correction and rehabilitation, and not punishment.
    F. Traffic officers, asked discussed above, would be unarmed officials whose sole job would be to enforce traffic laws, with high-speed pursuits forbidden except by marshals in cases of crucial apprehension of dangerous felons.
    G. Bailiffs and other court officers, tasked with protecting the officers of the court from harm, ensuring that order is maintained in court, and preventing courthouse violence.
    H. School resource officers, highly trained in crisis intervention, conflict resolution, external threat identification, and in teaching students about their constitutional rights. While they would need to be armed to prevent another Sandy Hook, the rules of engagement for drawing their weapon on someone unless there was a clear and present danger to students would be incredibly strict. These officers could get bonuses that increase with each consecutive goal achieved, for example, school years without their having to resort to force. I'm not sure about that, but, if we made it a point to reward the qualities we seek to foster, it could be a good thing. In my mind, these officers should be the best paid ones of all.
    I. Customs and border enforcement officers, tasked with worrying about enforcing those laws within 20 air miles of a physical border (the coast would not be a physical border), or within 2 miles of any international port or airport, or when an uninspected foreign national is convicted of a felony property crime or any violent crime, with transfer to marshals for deportation.
    J. Psychologists. Persons suffering from mental illnesses that cause them to break the social compact, or who might be a danger to themselves or others, should get ALL of the therapeutic and pharmaceutical help they need for as long as they need it. These officers would be paid a set salary, regardless of how few/many patients they saw or some scheme to make it so that people get help from qualified practitioners who are incentivized to get them better, not record numbers of visits and so forth.

    The DEA and ATF could be eliminated. The FBI could help with categories B&C.


    6. Every law enforcement officer must wear a recognizable uniform that doesn't resemble, in any way, a military uniform. Only Special Weapons And Tactics (SWAT) personnel should wear tactical gear on the street only when called for according to criteria determined by lawmakers. Every cop should wear a uniform (and drive a vehicle) that is clearly marked as identifying them as a police officer (and not part of the military). Combat veterans who wish to become LEOs must pass heightened standards of psychological and emotional worthiness in order to be sworn officers. Ideally, a state would only have one uniform for anyone who is a state law enforcement agent (of any kind).

    7. Civilian, elected review of all complaints. The root of "police" is the "polis" or the people, and those who would deign to uphold the law must also be subject to We the People. A police commissioner, tasked with giving out consequences to LEOs (other than criminal charges), should be separate from a police chief. A commissioner should only worry about making sure that the police are upholding codes of conduct/standards they are subject to. Anyone found to deviate from them should have clear consequences and documentation of them. Body cameras should always be on, with state auditors able to redact footage to protect victims' identities for things that need release to the public. Cops should no longer decide to turn them off. In rare situations, with someone unwilling to speak at all, a request could be made up the chain to have a commissioner authorize turning off a camera, according to narrow guidelines. In all cases, reasonable people need to be make decisions that are in the public interest.

    8. If you kill someone in the line of duty and it's justifiable according to independent review, you have a job for life, but you can never patrol the streets ever again unless you were unequivocally shot at first. I have a student who pulled someone over for speeding, and the guy exited the vehicle with an AK-47 shooting as soon as my student got out of his patrol car. He wasn't hit, and the guy got away (that day), but that kind of naked aggression is different.

    9. If you break the law as a police officer, you have the right to a trial, but the penalty for conviction should be incredibly harsh, with harsher penalties for betraying the public trust than for someone else committing the same crime.

    10. Mandatory body cameras for all LEOs. If your camera doesn't work for whatever reason, then you lose your job and are forever banned from holding another LEO position for life, no appeals.

    11. Military surplus to LEO agencies must end, effect immediately.

    12. The belief in the evidence of cop-said/citizen-said in criminal cases should no longer side with the cop. Either there is incontrovertible, verifiable evidence against the accused, or the case should be dismissed until there is.

    13. The use of pepper spray and other less-than-lethal methods of control must be reviewed and the rules changed to make cops less likely and/or willing to use them against We the People.

    14. A person who makes a demonstrably false claim of a wrongful act against a LEO should receive an incredibly severe sentence.

    15. Pay good cops what they're worth, not what we can pay them on the cheap. LEOs are not paid enough, by and large, to keep and retain the best, or to reward the best who do it because they love it and believe in Good.

    16. End the War on Drugs. A punitive approach to habit-forming drugs is an abject failure. If cops don't have to worry about drug enforcement, then they can go back to being LEOs and not DEA agents. All tax dollars on drugs, above sales taxes, must go to dealing with addiction.

    17. No collective bargaining with police unions about how to handle criminal charges of misconduct. Police should never be allowed to strike. Bullshit like happened in Buffalo with everyone on a team resigning from that team should be dealt with by termination and rehiring people who will respect citizens.

    18. Paid sabbatical leave every seven years. The first six months of sabbatical should include a paid vacation for those in classes B, C, D, E, and H, with the remaining six months spent either in an approved professional development course with an outside agency, approved outside employment, or additional leave (as determined solely by competent medical practitioners). The job can grind good people down into unfeeling robots. Sabbatical leave does wonders for morale and attitude.

    19. More minorities should become LEOs, and the communities that are policed should have a police force that resembles their makeup, racially, ethnically, and culturally.

    20. Immigrants are not criminals. If someone is caught in an uninspected or expired-visa status, they should be given a court date to deal with the civil infraction. Massive immgiration reform is needed, but, again, Darth McConnell prevents us from fixing these massive problems.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  10. #280
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    21. LEOs, where appropriate, should walk their patrol areas, and get to know the communities that they would police. Being on your cellphone in a car is not the same thing as knowing the folks you're seeing.

    22. Law enforcement agencies should create policies and procedures for policing mass demonstrations that employ a continuum of managed tactical resources that are designed to minimize the appearance of a military operation and avoid
    using provocative tactics and equipment that undermine civilian trust. Anyone caught as an agent provacateur or for having hired them to do so (duly convicted) should get a life sentence without parole.

    23. Law enforcement officers should be required to seek consent before a search and explain that a person has the right to refuse consent when there is no warrant or probable cause. Furthermore, officers should ideally obtain written and video acknowledgement that they have sought consent to a search in these circumstances.

    24. Civil forfeiture should require both a criminal conviction of an accused AND a proof positive that a seized piece of property, of whatever kind, was material to the breaking of the law. Merely not being able to demonstrate HOW something came into someone's possession should not embolden LEOs to seize assets or property. The onus is on the State to PROVE that something is from ill-gotten means before the State should have a right to it. I support a Constitutional Amendment to this effect (even though I'd argue that we already have one!).

    25. If you are terminated from one LEO organization, you are thereafter disqualified from working for ALL OTHER LEO organizations for life, without the right of appeal other than to the National Ombudsman's office.

    26. Absent a detailed, matching description of the facial features of an individual, being not-white and of a certain HEIGHT or WEIGHT does not meet a description of a suspect and warrant the detainment of citizens.

    27. Unmanned drones or other UAV technologies may not be employed without a warrant from a federal judge. Flying over a person's property for surveillance of that property should require either a warrant or permission from the property owner.

    28. Anyone who uses violence against any class of LEO, when verified via a non-LEO source, should receive a sentence of life imprisonment, without the hope of parole. If you kill a LEO (not in self defense) it should be a capital crime.

    29. Children are not adults. Each community shall decide what age = child and what age = adult, and no one shall be prosecuted as an adult before the age of adulthood, according to each community's standards, without exception.

    30. In every situation, the first goal of any LEO should be deescalation of a situation, avoidance of violence, and peaceful resolution of emotional situations. Officers should receive commendations and rewards for successful deescalation of violence through their efforts.

    32. The USA needs comprehensive firearms reform. If automatic weapons could be regulated in the mid-1980's, we can do the same thing with other firearms. The Red Dawn wet dreams of white men kill too many of us. Grandfather in the semi-automatic weapons like we did with automatic weapons, and attrit the rest. Criminals don't use automatic weapons anymore because of regulation. Semi-automatic weapons should follow suit.

    33. 125% pension pay for every LEO who makes it to retirement without a complaint.



    That's where I'm at these days.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  11. #281
    Bald not naked Pelado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    The 208
    Posts
    12,438

    Default

    Wow. You've put a lot of though into that. I like a lot of the ideas. Civil forfeiture, as I understand it, certainly seems to violate the Constitution.
    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
    - Goatnapper'96

  12. #282
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pelado View Post
    Wow. You've put a lot of though into that. I like a lot of the ideas. Civil forfeiture, as I understand it, certainly seems to violate the Constitution.
    The FBI needs significant reform. I have seen a number of heinous abuses by the FBI. In one local case, a young attorney was working with a client and the FBI cam in the midst of a client meeting, no the client had nothing to do with the investigation, and confiscated all of the attorney's computers. The client later confessed, I guess I am looking for another attorney. So the FBI put the attorney out of business.

    The attorney's father in law was under investigation, and he had no dealings with his father in law, but in order to intimidate the father in law, they harassed all of his family, children and in-laws. The FBI is a horrendous organization that needs citizen oversight of cases and of its conduct. It violates civil rights and Constitutional protections on a routine basis. We need the same sort of uprising against the FBI to limit its virtually unfettered power.

    The federal warrant power, and state warrant power, needs to be completely revamped and overhauled, as it is a rubber stamp for abuse. Lives and property are destroyed without reason.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  13. #283
    功 流感 战斗机 Uncle Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Where ∑ ★ = 1
    Posts
    22,820

    Default

    I didn't read it all but I like what I did... Wuap for President!
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  14. #284
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ted View Post
    I didn't read it all but I like what I did... Wuap for President!
    I'm far too arrogant and I react with emotion too often to be a good political leader. I'd rather be someone's idea person to bounce ideas off, an advisor, or someone who thinks of all the problems, benefits, or ramifications of a policy. That'd be a dream job.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  15. #285
    功 流感 战斗机 Uncle Ted's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Where ∑ ★ = 1
    Posts
    22,820

    Default

    Time to get rid of all those rich, private universities...

    Cancel Yale.
    The university is named after a slave-trader. Seize its endowment.

    Last Saturday, amid viral videos of public monuments being defaced all throughout the country, #CancelYale started trending on Twitter—but it wasn’t Antifa’s doing. It was an elaborate troll by conservative commentator Jesse Kelly. “Yale University was named for Elihu Yale. Not just a man who had slaves. An actual slave trader. I call on @Yale to change it’s name immediately and strip the name of Yale from every building, piece of paper, and merchandise. Otherwise, they hate black people. #CancelYale,” Kelly tweeted.

    He didn’t stop at Yale. Kelly’s “campaign” to topple monuments to slavery and indigenous genocide called out Harvard, Brown, the University of Virginia—every single one of these institutions have hoarded wealth, resources, and expertise on behalf of America’s elites. “I am calling on both parties in Congress to pass the Strip University Credentials Act for every American university like Yale, Georgetown, and Brown who are founded by slave owners. I’m calling it the SUC Act,” he tweeted. “End university racism and these monuments to slavery.”
    [...]
    https://humanevents.com/2020/06/26/cancel-yale/

    Yale was actually started with blood money. Maybe that fat endowment could be used for reparations. Let's see... $30 billion. There are about 40 million blacks in america. That is about $750 each!
    "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
    "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
    "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  16. #286
    My Mic Sounds Nice falafel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Las Wegas!
    Posts
    30,699

    Default

    Lots of ideas here wuap. Lots of them half-baked, as well. Maybe you can come back in another ten years and let us know which ones you still consider worth pursuing.
    Ain't it like most people, I'm no different. We love to talk on things we don't know about.

    "The only one of us who is so significant that Jeff owes us something simply because he decided to grace us with his presence is falafel." -- All-American

    GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

  17. #287
    Senior Member myboynoah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Land of the Morning Calm
    Posts
    16,885

    Default

    wap, have you put that out someplace else? I thought I saw some reference to it, or at least part of it on twitter.
    Give 'em Hell, Cougars!!!

    For all this His anger is not turned away, but His hand is stretched out still.

    Not long ago an obituary appeared in the Salt Lake Tribune that said the recently departed had "died doing what he enjoyed most—watching BYU lose."

  18. #288

    Default

    Some good ideas there Wuap. If there are bad ones in there, my excuse is that I just skimmed the list
    "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
    "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
    - SeattleUte

  19. #289
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by falafel View Post
    Lots of ideas here wuap. Lots of them half-baked, as well. Maybe you can come back in another ten years and let us know which ones you still consider worth pursuing.
    Or, we could just talk about which ones demonstrate my ignorance and not have to wait 10 years.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  20. #290
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by myboynoah View Post
    wap, have you put that out someplace else? I thought I saw some reference to it, or at least part of it on twitter.
    I put it on Facebook in pieces; this is the first time I've cobbled it together. I don't use Twitter much except to see what zaniness he's on about that day. I didn't get this list from other places, and I add to it when I read about or think of something that I haven't before. I think oxcoug may have retweeted something about my idea for cop sabbatical.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  21. #291
    Social Distance Warrior swampfrog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Embedded in some of those ideas is something I think about often because of my part time role as troubleshooter at work. In any multi-function entity such as a business or government, it is often the case that one function absorbs responsibilities from others over time because a function that requires the most flexibility and expertise will always be the most capable of handling the edge case. Why do cops have to secure an area before medics will move in? Why are cops in schools? Why are cops performing traffic control around construction sites? Why do these other functions not provide their own training and security?

    Most of these functions are handled by cops because that allows all of the other government services to focus on what they do best by exporting almost all risk to a single function that bears the weight of uncertain conditions.

    Police reform cannot be accomplished unless the vacuum created by the abdication of responsibility elsewhere in society is also addressed.

  22. #292
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    Embedded in some of those ideas is something I think about often because of my part time role as troubleshooter at work. In any multi-function entity such as a business or government, it is often the case that one function absorbs responsibilities from others over time because a function that requires the most flexibility and expertise will always be the most capable of handling the edge case. Why do cops have to secure an area before medics will move in? Why are cops in schools? Why are cops performing traffic control around construction sites? Why do these other functions not provide their own training and security?

    Most of these functions are handled by cops because that allows all of the other government services to focus on what they do best by exporting almost all risk to a single function that bears the weight of uncertain conditions.

    Police reform cannot be accomplished unless the vacuum created by the abdication of responsibility elsewhere in society is also addressed.
    My high school had a police officer in the 1980s. I don't recall ever once seeing him inside. His name was "Dan" something, but he was "Dan the Man." He sat in a little guard shack and prevented skipping. If you came late and parked in the lot, he'd radio the school who you were and what time it was, meaning you had to go get a check-in. He knew everyone's name, and I don't think he arrested a soul in the all the years I was there. I don't know when police first went into the schools, but I know that "zero-tolerance" policies about violence, led to schools just getting kids arrested for fighting, rather than discipline them. Honestly, the 1980s and early 1990s were a rough time to have kids in schools in some places because of the rampant violence. Cheap guns meant that a teacher trying to break up a fight could wind up dead, which did happen in some places. Columbine basically made it so that parents everywhere wanted cops in the schools. Sandy Hook? Jesus Christ. If we didn't do anything after Sandy Hook, there's no way we'll ever have gun reform in this country as long as the Boomers remain in charge of politics.

    I think a problem with the "abdication of responsibility" is that the Man is there to make sure that people behave. Americans are often colossal assholes about their "rights" and too often, EMTs and firemen have to get cops involved in getting people to move back for their own safety (or the safety of the first responders). So, it's not just abdication, but also the general FUCK-YOU-MAKE-ME-NESS of Americans' self-lauded independence bent. Also, medics go in and try and help, and there are many risk factors involved in being a medic that gloves and masks can't mitigate. So, cops move in and make sure that the injured aren't hellbent on dying that day and taking people with them. Stuff like that.

    I agree that we need a complete revamping of how we do business and what we ask cops to do. I agree that responsibility and training on a massive, national scale are called for. I also understand why and how we got to where we are. The knowledge that there are reasons why we do things as we do them doesn't mean that we can't change them.

    This isn't something that'll be fixed in 5-10 years, but, rather, it's going to be messy and hard for a long time. But, the end results should make us into the country we want to be instead of the country that middle-class white people think we are.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  23. #293
    Social Distance Warrior swampfrog's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,663

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    My high school had a police officer in the 1980s. I don't recall ever once seeing him inside. His name was "Dan" something, but he was "Dan the Man." He sat in a little guard shack and prevented skipping. If you came late and parked in the lot, he'd radio the school who you were and what time it was, meaning you had to go get a check-in. He knew everyone's name, and I don't think he arrested a soul in the all the years I was there. I don't know when police first went into the schools, but I know that "zero-tolerance" policies about violence, led to schools just getting kids arrested for fighting, rather than discipline them. Honestly, the 1980s and early 1990s were a rough time to have kids in schools in some places because of the rampant violence. Cheap guns meant that a teacher trying to break up a fight could wind up dead, which did happen in some places. Columbine basically made it so that parents everywhere wanted cops in the schools. Sandy Hook? Jesus Christ. If we didn't do anything after Sandy Hook, there's no way we'll ever have gun reform in this country as long as the Boomers remain in charge of politics.

    I think a problem with the "abdication of responsibility" is that the Man is there to make sure that people behave. Americans are often colossal assholes about their "rights" and too often, EMTs and firemen have to get cops involved in getting people to move back for their own safety (or the safety of the first responders). So, it's not just abdication, but also the general FUCK-YOU-MAKE-ME-NESS of Americans' self-lauded independence bent. Also, medics go in and try and help, and there are many risk factors involved in being a medic that gloves and masks can't mitigate. So, cops move in and make sure that the injured aren't hellbent on dying that day and taking people with them. Stuff like that.

    I agree that we need a complete revamping of how we do business and what we ask cops to do. I agree that responsibility and training on a massive, national scale are called for. I also understand why and how we got to where we are. The knowledge that there are reasons why we do things as we do them doesn't mean that we can't change them.

    This isn't something that'll be fixed in 5-10 years, but, rather, it's going to be messy and hard for a long time. But, the end results should make us into the country we want to be instead of the country that middle-class white people think we are.
    I agree with this, it isn't just abdication by other agents in the government, but of the culture at large also. Though the independent minded folks among us (when tempered by culture) serve us well under other conditions. Like this guy. I have a couple of nephews like this also. Won't listen to their parents, can't stand people telling them how to live their lives, probably don't wear masks. Would totally give their life for you if you are in mortal danger. Evolution has built all kinds of personality traits which serve us well under the right conditions, and not so well under the wrong ones.

    I'm all for rethinking how we police our society, but I'm only for doing it while also realizing this will necessarily require reform in other areas of society in ways that may not seem intuitive. Societal pressures have significantly impacted the construction of our governance systems. The law of unintended consequences suggests we move with care.

  24. #294
    Soul Plumber wuapinmon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Hartsville, South Carolina
    Posts
    29,066

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by swampfrog View Post
    The law of unintended consequences suggests we move with care.
    There really hasn't ever been anywhere like America. We are exceptional (though not in the ways so many think we are). When I hear about how such-and-such works in other countries, I am reminded that there isn't anywhere like here, both post-colonial and Empire, both multi-cultural and predominantly WASP, driven by the idea of right and driven by a love of money (I argue that Jesus gets less worship than Market Forces). We are all over the place, and America will eventually do the right thing, after we've tried everything else.

    Minorities are not down with moving with care. They want to burn the system down and start over. Somewhere between too cautious moving with care and gutting the system is a compromise. The Baby Boomers are morally bankrupt as a whole, and the way they vote is antagonistic to any kind of reform because the extremes command the attention of the parties, and no one will blink on compromise. Either they are entrenched ideologues who refuse to compromise or they are entrenched ideologues who refuse to compromise. The few in the Center aren't consistent enough in their voting to make the different wings tow the line down the middle, so we've got Darth McConnell and Darth Pelosi pandering to populists like Trump or Sanders, meaning that a total shit candidate like Biden with all his incumbent baggage, is going to be the next POTUS.

    This is the United States of By God America and Joe Biden is our best hope to defeat Trump? Joe Fucking Biden? I can't believe I'm going to vote for him in four months. Anyhow, moving with care isn't going to happen. Either we move too quickly and correct later, or we re-entrench and kick the can down the road for a decade or so, giving cancel culture time to slaughter more "Karens" and "Kens" and the police time to slaughter, literally, more citizens.
    "Yeah, but never trust a Ph.D who has an MBA as well. The PhD symbolizes intelligence and discipline. The MBA symbolizes lust for power." -- Katy Lied

  25. #295
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    The Baby Boomers are morally bankrupt as a whole,
    Do you often engage in hyperbole? Next you're going to tell me how morally upright younger generations are and how compromising they are.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  26. #296
    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    51,711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by wuapinmon View Post
    There really hasn't ever been anywhere like America. We are exceptional (though not in the ways so many think we are). When I hear about how such-and-such works in other countries, I am reminded that there isn't anywhere like here, both post-colonial and Empire, both multi-cultural and predominantly WASP, driven by the idea of right and driven by a love of money (I argue that Jesus gets less worship than Market Forces). We are all over the place, and America will eventually do the right thing, after we've tried everything else.

    Minorities are not down with moving with care. They want to burn the system down and start over. Somewhere between too cautious moving with care and gutting the system is a compromise. The Baby Boomers are morally bankrupt as a whole, and the way they vote is antagonistic to any kind of reform because the extremes command the attention of the parties, and no one will blink on compromise. Either they are entrenched ideologues who refuse to compromise or they are entrenched ideologues who refuse to compromise. The few in the Center aren't consistent enough in their voting to make the different wings tow the line down the middle, so we've got Darth McConnell and Darth Pelosi pandering to populists like Trump or Sanders, meaning that a total shit candidate like Biden with all his incumbent baggage, is going to be the next POTUS.

    This is the United States of By God America and Joe Biden is our best hope to defeat Trump? Joe Fucking Biden? I can't believe I'm going to vote for him in four months. Anyhow, moving with care isn't going to happen. Either we move too quickly and correct later, or we re-entrench and kick the can down the road for a decade or so, giving cancel culture time to slaughter more "Karens" and "Kens" and the police time to slaughter, literally, more citizens.
    You don't see any irony in this statement?

    You are part of the problem.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

  27. #297

    Default

    Rare is the person who can change their opinion once it is backed with passion. The persuasiveness of contrary evidence is of no matter. It feels good to be right. It feels bad to be wrong. People like feeling good.
    Dyslexics are teople poo...

  28. #298
    Pre-Historic Man
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Allendale County, SC
    Posts
    11,761

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    Rare is the person who can change their opinion once it is backed with passion. The persuasiveness of contrary evidence is of no matter. It feels good to be right. It feels bad to be wrong. People like feeling good.
    Bad, bad Leroy Brown.
    "Guitar groups are on their way out, Mr Epstein."

    Upon rejecting the Beatles, Dick Rowe told Brian Epstein of the January 1, 1962 audition for Decca, which signed Brian Poole and the Tremeloes instead.

  29. #299

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Flystripper View Post
    Rare is the person who can change their opinion once it is backed with passion. The persuasiveness of contrary evidence is of no matter. It feels good to be right. It feels bad to be wrong. People like feeling good.
    That's why it's awesome to be right all the time
    "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
    "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
    - SeattleUte

  30. #300
    Corporate lackey for Jesus Jeff Lebowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    The heart of the UC
    Posts
    51,711

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Northwestcoug View Post
    That's why it's awesome to be right all the time
    Ha. Well played.
    "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
    "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
    "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •